UtahJarhead wrote:I have a problem with this. NOt what you did, but what the OEO did. You are under no obligation to tell him ANYTHING relating to the firearms, not even that they exist in your vehicle. If the cop asked politely, that's one thing... if he demanded it of you, that's something else entirely. As far as being upset about being disarmed, I would do it if he said to, but I would be VERY upset about it. A firearm sitting in a holster is safe. A firearm being pulled out, transferring possession is NOT safe. If you were going to use it, it would have been at the outset, not after he says "Do you know how fast you were going?"
They are going to ask, and I don't think it's really reasonable to make a stink about that. If you saw my car you might be more understanding about the questions. There's a few piles of targets in the back window that have been shot out (I save all my targets to track how I do), more piles in the back seat. Two of these times I had a few rifle cases in the back seat that would have been the next thing an officer would see after the piles of used targets, then they might notice the boxes of clays. It's always been friendly. the extent of the questions after asking if there were firearms was to ask if the rifles were loaded, so it was just your basic probe for legality. All times they let me off with a warning for what I was pulled over for.
The police are under NO OBLIGATION to protect you. While an officer MIGHT protect you, should the need arise, the Supreme Court has said time and time again that protecting the citizenry is NOT their job and they canNOT be held liable if they fail to do it.
This is why I said I choose to assume that those in uniform will protect me. Just because they are not obligation to do it, doesn't mean they won't. It's a personal choice, but I choose to believe that those in uniform (police, firemen, military) are professionals who have made a choice to risk their lives for the betterment of our society. If someone came up and tried to hurt me while I was pulled over, I do think the vast majority of officers would try to do something about it, despite any specific court rulings. Besides, the things I carry a firearm to combat are typically things that want to be as far away from police as possible. Ya know, the saying: "I carry a gun, because a policeman is too heavy, and won't fit in my pocket."
And I have a HUGE problem with this! This is why rights get stripped away. It's because we want them to feel comfort at our expense. I respect what cops do and I know they're almost all good people... but they are there TO PROTECT OUR RIGHTS. If we toss our rights away so they can be comfortable, we are removing their only purpose for their job existing in the first place.
It is your right to want things to go smoothly. It should not be EXPECTED of you. We are not dogs here to appease the master. We are their reason for being.
I agree, but I was more referring to how I want things to go during a stop. Once I'm there, and this office, for whatever reason, feels this thing would make him feel more at east, I want that. The last thing I want is an armed cop who is worried about me hurting him when he knows I have the means. In that situation my priority would be to diffuse, get it over without any unfortunate incidents. You can always go back and argue for how things should have happened. I actually noticed that I had said in my post that I wouldn't be too upset about it. I didn't really mean that, I more meant that I wouldn't be surprised by it (though it's not been my experience, I know there are bad cops out there), and I would comply. Depending on how it went, I might file a complaint, or consult with an attorney; the demeanor of the officer would likely play a part as well. But in the throes of the situation, my goal of staying safe would take over my goal of protecting my rights.
*snicker* I'm sure we've all seen the DEA officer. "I'm the only one in this room that I know of that's professional enough to handle this Glock." *BOOM!*
Another choice I guess. But anywhere I go to shoot I have people all around me who I have no idea of their familiarity with guns, and I live with it. At least with a leo I know they have had some training, and handle their gun 5+ days a week. I suspect if you compare ND's per time spent armed, police probably have a decent track record. And besides, this is the DEA you're talking about... They shouldn't even exist, let alone be considered law enforcement, hehe. I think of them as the price control department for the drug cartels of the americas.
I hope you understand this is not meant to be critical of *YOU*. It's totally not and I apologize if it sounds that way. I just think you have far too much faith in them as a whole.
I never take anything personally, I like to hear other viewpoints
I think it's important to keep going over potential scenarios in our heads, forming plans, and training for them. It's what will make sure you act, and act properly
The worst outcome of discourse is that neither of us get anything from it, but there's a chance we might!
As far as your rights go... think about the TSA. It's a real life rendition of the camel's nose in the tent. They started out running everybody through metal detectors. Then bigger scanners. They denying sharp things. Then liquids. Then denied you the right to exercise your FIRST Amendment.
How far does it go? However far we let it.
I hate the TSA, lol. But I think we're more discussing the difference between how the civilian would react, and how the officer should have reacted. I prefer to just not inform them, and I don't, but I also am not going to lie to them when asked. Once they know about it, it's kinda their show in my mind. I may come back afterward and call foul, but a scared police officer in my mind is a safety issue I don't want to deal with if I can help it.
I think I didn't articulate very well that I was more talking about dealing with the immediacy of such a situation. I think we're fairly like-minded on the way things *should* be