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Big 5 Sporting Goods

11K views 21 replies 17 participants last post by  UtahJarhead 
#1 ·
My wife went in earlier in the week (Logan store) to buy my Christmas present... a shotgun. She told them the gun, and they asked 20ga or 12 ga. She wanted to be sure, so she called my son, who informed her 12 ga. would be what I prefer. She told them 12 ga., and mentioned that it was a Christmas present for her husband. As soon as she said that, they said, "I'm sorry, but it policy that we cannot sell a gun to someone knowing that they are going to give it as a gift to someone else. She said, "Fine, I am buying it for me!". They still refused to sell it to her. Am I whacko somewhere, or is this illegal policy and bordering on discrimination? I will not do business there again.
 
#3 ·
moyler said:
Don't blame the store. It is a Federal offense. Google "straw purchase".
It is neither a federal offense or a straw purchase to buy a firearm to gift to someone else. From the back of form 4473:
For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no " to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 12a
.
 
#5 ·
It's legal, just stupid. Big 5 is headquartered in California and appears to base most of their company policies on California laws and regulations despite the fact they have plenty of stores outside that backward state.
 
#6 ·
Mistake #1: Going to Big 5 for anything.

I've NEVER had a good experience with Big 5. Their Chinese made garbage and generally worthless customer disservice staff are an embarrassment. I once was given a $20 gift certificate for Big 5. I purchased a set of cheap noise reduction ear protection for $19.95 at the Logan store. I got it home and it wouldn't even turn on. I took it back and after waiting for someone, anyone to help me for 15 minutes, I was finally given $45 for the return. I insisted that I didn't pay that much, but they seriously would not believe. Finally all of the employees gathered around and none of them could figure out how to NOT give me $45 for the return because that's what the computer said to do. I didn't feel at all honest taking the money due to idiocy, but after about 10 minutes of arguing with them we all agreed that I'd take $30 and they'd use the rest to buy pizza. What a joke of a place! I can't believe how they are still in business.</rant>

But back on topic, yes, they can have a policy about this. It clearly, however, is NOT a straw purchase if it is a gift. I doubt they do have such a policy, but just like in my incident, nobody there really knows anything anyway. They have the right to refuse service to anyone for about any reason - even if that reason is that the 'salesman' is a dingbat. The best part of it is that she gets to go spend her money somewhere else (I suggest Cal Ranch or interwebz).
 
#7 ·
moyler said:
Here's a Wiki bit on it: A straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person.
Buying a firearm as a gift is not "acting as a proxy". You're acting as a proxy if you purchase a firearm for someone else with their money. If you buy a gun with your own money and give it as a give, that is not a straw purchase.

moyler said:
The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor.
Actually, there is NOTHING in the law about straw purchases. The purchaser's only crime when buying as a proxy for another person is lying on the 4473 (which is a felony, as is any other misrepresentation as part of a firearm purchase). As far as I can find in the law, the ultimate possessor has committed no crime, unless he or she is barred for some other reason from possessing the firearm.

It's kind of an odd situation, because it's effectively the question on the 4473 that creates the "straw purchase" crime. There's nothing in the law prohibiting proxy purchases. There's nothing in the law that specifies that question should be on the 4473 (nor even the existence of the 4473). The law does allow the creation of administrative rules, and it's in those rules, not the law, where the 4473 is created, as well as the policy that bars an FFL from selling to you if you answer "No" to the question about whether or not you're the ultimate possessor. Personally, I question whether the authority granted by Congress to establish administrative rules was really intended to authorize the creation of a new crime that isn't in the law.

moyler said:
One of the questions on form 4473 is "I am the buyer of this firearm" and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.
Hehe, you should read what you quoted ;-)
 
#8 ·
I really cant blame Big 5 for refusing it, as its better safe than sorry at this point concerning it.

Personally, if someone were going to buy me a gun, I think I'd rather have a gift certificate for the amount, or even have them accompany me . Even with something as simple as a Rem 870, there's still 10 different models (ok, maybe rem 870 wasn't a good example). But anyway, there are just so many choices concerning firearm options that unless an exact model is given, its really just better to let them pick out what they want themselves.

But really, dont buy from Big 5. Buy from someone that actually specializes in guns. I'd even go as far as to say to skip the big places like Cabelas and Sportsmans, but they can have good prices once in a while if you go in knowing what you want. I used to recommend Gallenson's to everyone, but they've gotten to the point they've raised their prices where its only good to window shop there. They do have one of the larger selections of shotguns though. Personally, I'm at the point I buy from the internet more than not now because the places I used to shop have started raising their prices more than I'm willing to pay. Considering that gun prices really haven't risen that much, it means companies that do this are slowing down in business and trying to keep up with the "gun rush" income. Regretfully, I dont know any gun places that far north, as Salt Lake is about as far as I travel in that direction.

As far as the whole straw purchase, I'm in complete agreement with DiveGeek, and the others concerning it not being illegal. The 4473 instructions even give a gift as a valid example, but to be honest, legal or not, if I had my FFL, I dont think I'd do it either. Its just not worth the risk. They really cant get in trouble for refusing the transfer, as suspecting fraud on the 4473 is plenty enough reason to disallow it, and actually would be illegal for the license holder to allow the transfer (based on the same law about falsifying a 4473. Since the FFL has to sign the 4473 saying its their belief it is not unlawful to transfer the firearm, which if their belief is correct or incorrect, would still be falsifying information if for any reason they thought it wouldn't be legal to do the transfer). Emotions have no place in documents. Whoever wrote these forms really should be ashamed of themselves, but the wording is there and we have to live with it...
 
#9 ·
divegeek said:
Hehe, you should read what you quoted ;-)
Indeed, I did not read all of what I quoted. As well, I misunderstood the definition. (obviously)

My appologies to the OP, as well as the forum.
 
#10 ·
moyler said:
My appologies to the OP, as well as the forum.
No need to apologize. The point is for everyone to learn, and often the best way to really learn something is by making a mistake. I certainly make my share.
 
#11 ·
Thanks to all. I understand the feeling about Big 5, and would not normally purchase from there, anyway, but it was a gift that was going to be from my wife, thinking she was doing the right thing, and getting a whole lot of attitude along with the refusal. So much so that she spoiled the gift idea to me to be able to tell me about it. I will look for the gun elsewhere. I did call Big 5 headquarters in CA and spoke with someone, and asked for a copy of the policy, which I was told that he believes it is simply an unwritten policy, and that nothing exists in writing. Surprise!
Needless to say, I have purchased a few (non-gun) items from them in the past, but I will be making no further purchases from them. :violin:
 
#12 ·
You need to get a manager and explain the law to them, walmart had this issue also, (st george) The store manager is a good guy and the smartest one working there. :lol2:

The part on the form where it asks if your the actual buyer, just wants to make sure its your money, not someone elses money, if you were buying the gun with someone elses money its a straw purchase, if it's your money, then you're GTG even if your buying for someone else (gift).
I hope that makes sense. :thumbsup:

also.... I think they would be good to refuse it if there were two people buying, one filling out the paper work, and the other paying... that can be viewed a straw purchase. ;)

I bought a pistol for my wife from sportsmans, I was very clear that this was a gift for my wife, I had the guy thinking REAL hard :lol: but I was gtg. :dancing:
 
#13 ·
I have a little gun store in Richmond. I don't stock a lot, but I can get anything you want in 2-3 days. Give me a shot next time you need a gun.
www.myfavoritegunstore.com
 
#17 ·
divegeek said:
moyler said:
My appologies to the OP, as well as the forum.
No need to apologize. The point is for everyone to learn, and often the best way to really learn something is by making a mistake. I certainly make my share.
My wife points out that I am continually "learning" everyday! :p
 
#18 ·
On the flip side to Big 5, I purchased a Mossy 590 for $210. a while back with their $229.99 sale and a 10% coupon. The tag on the box had it listed for $399.99. Since then I have never seen it that low. I guess they learned. I'm happy.
 
#19 ·
33 years ago I bought a Marlin 30-30 for $89. The store had to order it in. When I picked it up, the clerk told me that they paid more than $89 to get it.

Next year, that chain of stores, called White Front, went bankrupt. I bought lots of stuff at incredible prices at their liquidation sale. I still have a box of .308 sierra bullets with the store tag on them and a price tag or 5.99
 
#20 ·
Manlaan said:
I used to recommend Gallenson's to everyone, but they've gotten to the point they've raised their prices where its only good to window shop there.
I read this same thing over and over, here and in other reviews of Gallenson's online. However, when looking for a Kimber 1911 recently I thought their prices were right in line with other stores in the SL valley and down through Orem. The Pro Carry HD 2 I got was easily the best deal I saw in several days of visiting shops. I thought their prices on .45 auto ammo was reasonable as well, especially their defensive (hollow point) rounds. I certainly can't speak to everything they sell, but for what I was in the market for, they were more than competitive and had a great selection.
 
#21 ·
Very legal in what they did, I'm a gun dealer in Draper Utah and the federal law gives us dealers the right to refuse sale to anyone we feel maybe trying obtain a firearm illegally. However nothing in law says you can't purchase a firearm for a gift for someone. Dealer should of asked more questions before denying the sale or at least I would have. Us that have federal license have our freedom to protect, cause you make one wrong mistake and ATF will have their boys at your door putting shiny bracelets on you and giving you a ride to Federal Prison. So don't blame dealer for Covering his backside, I'm sure you would want to do the same thing if your freedom was on the line. Now days you can't be to sure who's walking in your door trying to purchase a firearm.
 
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