Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Discuss issues regarding concealed carry.

Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby B5.5Dan » Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:07 pm

Hello All!
I hope I'm putting this in the right place. I have a question about the status of my carrying concealed at work, which happens to be as a teacher in Weber County. I carry, or would like to carry deep conceal. I don't mind discussing firearms or policy with anyone, but I don't want that discussion to come around because I reach up to point at a picture of Nixon and have my 1911 poking out. :mrgreen:

From what I can gather, I am within the rules carrying (as a CFP holder), but I guess I would just like some assurance. I have a co-worker I am friendly with assure me that I was wrong, but I didn't think I was. Still, I thought I should triple and quadruple-check.

If you fine people can help me, I would be much obliged!
Thanks!
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby Snurd » Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:11 pm

Of course you can carry on school property with a CFP. Your friend doesn't know what they are talking about.

Here is the law restricting carry on school property. Note the section in red.

76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties. (1) As used in this section, "on or about school premises" means: (a) (i) in a public or private elementary or secondary school; or (ii) on the grounds of any of those schools; (b) (i) in a public or private institution of higher education; or (ii) on the grounds of a public or private institution of higher education; and (iii) (A) inside the building where a preschool or child care is being held, if the entire building is being used for the operation of the preschool or child care; or (B) if only a portion of a building is being used to operate a preschool or child care, in that room or rooms where the preschool or child care operation is being held. (2) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501,at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in this section. (3) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor. (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(4) This section does not apply if: (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523
,or as otherwise authorized by law; (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator; (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or (d) the possession is: (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property; or (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students. (5) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

Note it says this doesn't apply to those authorized under 76-10-523

76-10-523 . Persons exempt from weapons laws. (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following: (a) a United States marshal; (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm; (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction; (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711; (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711; (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is: (i) unloaded; and (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501. (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued: (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704 ; or (b) by another state or county.

Sorry it took a little while. This is hard to do on a phone

EDIT: Also note in the exemption above it says 53-5-704

53-5-704. (1) (a) The bureau shall issue a permit to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense to an applicant who is 21 years of age or older within 60 days after receiving an application, unless the bureau finds proof that the applicant does not meet the qualifications set forth in Subsection
Last edited by Snurd on Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby manithree » Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:24 pm

I am not a lawyer, so interpret this for yourself, but I did add some emphasis:
53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
(1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
(2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
(a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
(b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
(3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
(4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
(5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
(6) As used in this section:
(a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
(b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
(7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby The Armed Female » Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:26 pm

I carry all the time at my kids school-Weber County. One time, I was in the principles office and he was bragging to me about the fact that he can "spot who has a weapon ". I literally had to stop myself from laughing and or standing up to spin around and ask him if I was one of them! :wink:
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby B5.5Dan » Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:33 pm

First of all... You did that on a phone?! I owe you dinner! :D
Thanks for including the law. You know, you have to go through a good deal of background-checking before they issue your permit. You also have to go through a lot of checking before you can teach. Heck, you have to go through a bunch of checks before you can join the Ed program at the local universities! And personally, I would feel better knowing that my children's teachers were ready for the worst, especially in light of everything going on lately. Then again, I'm not scared witless of firearms.

However, I do feel a little sheepish about not being intimately familiar with our state laws. That's what I need to do after I make next month's plans, put all these new textbooks away, help with registration, etc... :ack:
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Re: Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby Snurd » Wed 17 Aug 2011 3:36 pm

B5.5Dan wrote:However, I do feel a little sheepish about not being intimately familiar with our state laws. That's what I need to do after I make next month's plans, put all these new textbooks away, help with registration, etc... :ack:

Don't worry about it. We were all like that once. This forum taught me a lot, and got me reading the laws.
Also note I put an edit in my above post. Helps seal the deal.
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby JoeSparky » Wed 17 Aug 2011 4:20 pm

Carry in UTAH public schools is 100% legal IF you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon FROM Utah (Federal law limits this).
Your permit exempts you from several laws and their penalties including but not limit too>

You are ABLE to conceal (not legally required to conceal).
You are able to carry in any public Utah School.
You are legally able to CARRY a firearm (openly or concealed -- loaded or unloaded)in ANY Utah public School as long a you have a permit issued to you by ANY state or county in the US (Utah recognizes ALL permits)... see first line above.

School Districts and all other political subdivisions in UTAH below the State Legislature are prohibited from enacting or enforcing ANY policy, procedure, act, employment action AGAINST anyone legally carrying a firearm.

If you want some support, I will OPEN CARRY my firearm in YOUR School location WHILE I come to introduce myself to you while you are on break (don't want to interfere with your teaching responsibilities)!
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby B5.5Dan » Wed 17 Aug 2011 4:41 pm

JoeSparky wrote:If you want some support, I will OPEN CARRY my firearm in YOUR School location WHILE I come to introduce myself to you while you are on break (don't want to interfere with your teaching responsibilities)!

I'd love to meet you, but I should probably wait on the OC until next year. I'm still provisional... :roll:
For some reason, my principal is VERY anti-firearm. He'd likely change his tune if the worst were to happen, but I'd rather he stay anti and not have the worst happen. There are 2 other faculty members with permits, but they absolutely refuse to talk about it at work. Very odd...
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby UtahJarhead » Wed 17 Aug 2011 5:13 pm

With Utah being a right to hire state, they can fire you for any reason they want. No, they CANNOT punish you for carrying your firearm as ALL of you are employees of the state to include your boss, his/her boss, and his/her boss after that. HOWEVER, after they know you carry, if they have liberal tendencies, I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself on teaching probation for "inability to teach" or something as equally crappy. And... you'd be virtually powerless to stop it.

Unless you're good friends with the Principal and school administrators, it's my advice to keep it concealed and let it be a secret between you and yourself. I like making sure employees of the state know their limits, but this is your job. I'm sure you'd rather keep it.
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby divegeek » Wed 17 Aug 2011 7:26 pm

UtahJarhead wrote:With Utah being a right to hire state, they can fire you for any reason they want. No, they CANNOT punish you for carrying your firearm as ALL of you are employees of the state to include your boss, his/her boss, and his/her boss after that. HOWEVER, after they know you carry, if they have liberal tendencies, I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself on teaching probation for "inability to teach" or something as equally crappy. And... you'd be virtually powerless to stop it.

Unless you're good friends with the Principal and school administrators, it's my advice to keep it concealed and let it be a secret between you and yourself. I like making sure employees of the state know their limits, but this is your job. I'm sure you'd rather keep it.

+1

If they're dumb enough to say that you're being penalized for carrying, they're screwed. But if they're smart enough to make it about something else... you're screwed.
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby dewittdj » Wed 17 Aug 2011 9:31 pm

B5.5Dan wrote:First of all... You did that on a phone?! I owe you dinner! :D

:agree: A nice steak dinner with all of the trimmings!!! :thumbsup:
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby dewittdj » Wed 17 Aug 2011 9:40 pm

divegeek wrote:
UtahJarhead wrote:With Utah being a right to hire state, they can fire you for any reason they want. No, they CANNOT punish you for carrying your firearm as ALL of you are employees of the state to include your boss, his/her boss, and his/her boss after that. HOWEVER, after they know you carry, if they have liberal tendencies, I wouldn't be surprised if you suddenly find yourself on teaching probation for "inability to teach" or something as equally crappy. And... you'd be virtually powerless to stop it.
Unless you're good friends with the Principal and school administrators, it's my advice to keep it concealed and let it be a secret between you and yourself. I like making sure employees of the state know their limits, but this is your job. I'm sure you'd rather keep it.

+1
If they're dumb enough to say that you're being penalized for carrying, they're screwed. But if they're smart enough to make it about something else... you're screwed.

+2
My sister is an ultra-liberal teacher (with a doctorate in elementary education of gifted and talented children???) who wouldn't hesitate to concoct some far-fetched story about how a gun toting, 2nd Amendment, RTKABA fellow teacher was creating a hostile environment that detracted from or prevented learning. Step 2... you end up with your pink slip and a couple of boxes to pack your personal belongings while being supervised by the union guerrillas.
Keep it ultra-deep concealed and tell NO ONE! As a RTKABA'er, you're a lone wolf in a flock of "liberal, mentally deranged sheeple."

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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby gravedancer » Thu 18 Aug 2011 7:58 am

B5.5Dan wrote:Hello All!
I hope I'm putting this in the right place. I have a question about the status of my carrying concealed at work, which happens to be as a teacher in Weber County. I carry, or would like to carry deep conceal. I don't mind discussing firearms or policy with anyone, but I don't want that discussion to come around because I reach up to point at a picture of Nixon and have my 1911 poking out. :mrgreen:

From what I can gather, I am within the rules carrying (as a CFP holder), but I guess I would just like some assurance. I have a co-worker I am friendly with assure me that I was wrong, but I didn't think I was. Still, I thought I should triple and quadruple-check.

If you fine people can help me, I would be much obliged!
Thanks!



If you have your permit, you can OC or CC at a school. Whoever told you you cant is wrong. That doesnt mean the school cant fire you for carrying (well technically they would just make up another reason probably), but its not a crime.

If you dont have your permit, you cant carry on school grounds. It used to be within 1000 feet of a school, but that got changed and went into effect earlier this year.
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Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby Ruminus » Thu 18 Aug 2011 9:23 am

gravedancer wrote: used to be within 1000 feet of a school, but that got changed and went into effect earlier this year.

For UT purposes, correct. Don't forget the Federal GFSZ still applies sans permit, IIRC.
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Re: Concealed Carry in Public Schools

Postby ian husford » Thu 18 Aug 2011 11:28 am

A bit of clarification, the law is talking about public schools and state-funded schools. In other words, schools like BYU and Westminster - which are private - can make rules about carrying.

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