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Meeting today! No Firearms, City Park, St. George, UT

30K views 72 replies 32 participants last post by  Wrangler_dave9 
#1 ·
I need your help and thoughts on this. I'm not as well versed as a lot of you on State Gun Laws

St. George has an ordinance stating "No weapons allowed in City Parks" I want to get this ordinance repealed, or rather in compliance with state Law. I would also like to bring up the topic of open carry while on public/city property and bring up the recent New Mexico case when it comes to cops stopping, questioning, detaining etc. with no other reason but that the person is open carrying a firearm.
I have been told by both a Washington County Sheriffs deputy and SGPD officer that they would stop you if you open carry.

I am going to address the St. George City Council/Mayor this Wednesday, Sept 30 @ 5:00pm. And I will have about 3-5 minutes to address my (our) concerns. the Police chief or a rep from the PD will be in a

The City Park Ordinance can be found here. (city code 7-3-1: RULES, REGULATIONS AND REQUIREMENTS: {K}
http://sterling.webiness.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=399
K. Weapons: While in a park, no person shall carry a knife upon their person having a blade of three inches (3") or longer in length, or have possession of, or discharge a BB gun, air rifle, pistol, firearm, bow and arrow, or any other type of dangerous weapon.
*And how the crap are you supposed to slice a watermelon with a 3" knife at the family picnic??
 
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#2 ·
RustyShackleford said:
The City Park Ordinance can be found here. (city code 7-3-1: RULES, REGULATIONS AND REQUIREMENTS: {K}
http://sterling.webiness.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=399
K. Weapons: While in a park, no person shall carry a knife upon their person having a blade of three inches (3") or longer in length, or have possession of, or discharge a BB gun, air rifle, pistol, firearm, bow and arrow, or any other type of dangerous weapon.
*And how the crap are you supposed to slice a watermelon with a 3" knife at the family picnic??
The ordinance doesn't say that you can't have an 18" knife to cut your watermellon, it just says you can't carry it on your person. Carrying it in the box with the rest of your picnic stuff would be legal under the ordinance.
 
#3 ·
Car Knocker said:
RustyShackleford said:
The City Park Ordinance can be found here. (city code 7-3-1: RULES, REGULATIONS AND REQUIREMENTS: {K}
http://sterling.webiness.com/codebook/index.php?book_id=399
K. Weapons: While in a park, no person shall carry a knife upon their person having a blade of three inches (3") or longer in length, or have possession of, or discharge a BB gun, air rifle, pistol, firearm, bow and arrow, or any other type of dangerous weapon.
*And how the crap are you supposed to slice a watermelon with a 3" knife at the family picnic??
The ordinance doesn't say that you can't have an 18" knife to cut your watermellon, it just says you can't carry it on your person. Carrying it in the box with the rest of your picnic stuff would be legal under the ordinance.
Until the police officer sees you holding it in order to cut the watermelon and then decides to charge you for vioating this idiotic ordinance, all because you now have a knife over 3" on your person. Believe me, there are those out there who would abuse the power they have been entrusted with and this would be the time you would discover it first hand.
This ordinance truly does need to be deleted, or changed significantly in order to be in compliance with State Law.
 
#4 ·
Keep us posted on this one - interesting....
 
#5 ·
I guess the question is which law supperseeds? Does State Law trump City ordinence? I would think so, but I am certainly no laywer. :dunno:
 
#6 ·
High-Low said:
I guess the question is which law supperseeds? Does State Law trump City ordinence? I would think so, but I am certainly no laywer. :dunno:
In this instance state law does supersede city ordinances. The legislature in passing the law stated that they were the only body allowed to make laws on weapons. This is fairly generalized here however, the fact is that no city may make rules, ordinances or laws which are more restrictive than state law. There are some specific places where the facility may specifically rule differently as long as lockers are provided--in order for them to be in compliance. No time at the moment to get out my law information or even Mitch Vilos' Utah Gun Laws III Edition however, I am sure Divegeek can chime in with a more solid explanation than I at this time. But cities do not trump state law in this regard like they do in the state of California--now that is one chaotic mess!
 
#7 ·
53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
(1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
(2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
(a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
(b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
(3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
(4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
(5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
(6) As used in this section:
(a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
(b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
(7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.
 
#8 ·
Good luck. I can't imagine the city cousel could argue much with you that this law is outdated. As it stands now, if you were to try to carry your firearm either concealed or open into a St George city park and the police became aware of it, do you think would they cite you for breaking this city ordinance or do they already understand that state law supercedes this law?
 
#9 ·
Car Knocker said:
53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
(1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
(2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
(a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
(b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
(3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
(4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
........
The only thing I can find that gives a Municipality and leway with regulating firearms is this section (discharge of firearmes)
10-8-47. Intoxication -- Fights -- Disorderly conduct -- Assault and battery -- Petit larceny -- Riots and disorderly assemblies -- Firearms and fireworks -- False pretenses and embezzlement -- Sale of liquor, narcotics or tobacco to minors -- Possession of controlled substances -- Treatment of alcoholics and narcotics or drug addicts.
They may prevent intoxication, fighting, quarreling, dog fights, cockfights, prize fights, bullfights, and all disorderly conduct and provide against and punish the offenses of assault and battery and petit larceny; they may restrain riots, routs, noises, disturbances or disorderly assemblies in any street, house or place in the city; they may regulate and prevent the discharge of firearms, rockets, powder, fireworks or any other dangerous or combustible material; they may provide against and prevent the offense of obtaining money or property under false pretenses and the offense of embezzling money or property in all cases where the money or property embezzled or obtained under false pretenses does not exceed in value the sum of $100 and may prohibit the sale, giving away or furnishing of intoxicating liquors or narcotics, or of tobacco to any person under twenty-one years of age; cities may, by ordinance, prohibit the possession of controlled substances as defined in the Utah Controlled Substances Act, provided the conduct is not a class A misdemeanor or felony, and provide for treatment of alcoholics, narcotic addicts and other persons who are addicted to the use of drugs or intoxicants such that they substantially lack the capacity to control their use of the drugs or intoxicants, and judicial supervision may be imposed as a means of effecting their rehabilitation.
Is there any others???
 
#10 ·
I will be addressing the St. George City Council today.

My main topic is a St. George ordinance that prohibits firearms in city parks (clearly a violation of State firearm laws) I will also make it known that we have every right to posses firearms while at the park as well as all other city/public property and if we choose to OC those firearms, they should respect that right!

I have open carried a few times but have never seen a cop at the time I was OCing....But I have talked to a few officers and a Washington County Sheriff Deputy. They indicated that they would stop you 100% of the time. and they don't seem to care to much about unlawful detention. I hope I'm not the only person in St. George to OC....but right now I have not seen anyone OC in this area and I have lived here for 25 years.

It would be nice if I had some support at the city council meeting today.
Thanks,
Larry M.
St. George

September 30 2009 City Council Agenda

NOTICE OF WORK MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL

OF THE CITY OF ST. GEORGE,

WASHINGTON COUNTY, UTAH
Public Notice

Public notice is hereby given that the City Council of the City of St. George, Washington County, Utah, will hold a work meeting on Wednesday, September 30, 2009 commencing at 5:00 p.m. in the City Council Chambers, St. George City Office, 175 East 200 North, St. George, Utah.

The agenda for the meeting is as follows:

1. Comments from the public.
 
#11 ·
Good luck man, you have my support from afar. Have you written down what you plan to say? If you want to post it here, I'm sure there are at least a few of us that would be willing to give you some feedback.

If you haven't written it down yet, may I suggest keeping it very strictly on the topic of either guns in the park, or OC, not both. Mayors and City Council people have very short attention spans, so you are likely to lose them if the topic changes. :lol: However you could always just open carry, and then talk about guns in the park. That could get their attention on both subjects.
 
#12 ·
jaredbelch said:
Good luck man, you have my support from afar. Have you written down what you plan to say? If you want to post it here, I'm sure there are at least a few of us that would be willing to give you some feedback.

If you haven't written it down yet, may I suggest keeping it very strictly on the topic of either guns in the park, or OC, not both. Mayors and City Council people have very short attention spans, so you are likely to lose them if the topic changes. :lol: aboHowever you could always just open carry, and then talk ut guns in the park. That could get their attention on both subjects.
I have thought about that....but I think i will test the waters a little first.

I am going to lead off with reading the city ordinance (posted above), followed by 53-5a-102, with special emphasis on "4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities." and then (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

And then going to the Utah Municipal Code 10-8-47
that shows the only thing a local authority (City/Municipality) can regulate is the "Discharge of a Firearm"

I will let them know that as a law abiding citizen I have every right to have the means at hand to protect myself and family while We use the city park (I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible)
I want to keep my presentation as short as possible but I also feel it is appropriate to remind them that open carry is legal (even in the park) I do need to get the SGPD on record as to their procedures..."for when I get detained"
I will also have copies of the "Utah Gun Law" pamphlets to pass out...enough for everyone!
 
#15 ·
doing a little more reserch....I just visited one of the bike/hiking trails in the city...they have the same stupid sign on the trail heads.

These are the same trails that more than one woman has been attacked....I am going to bring this up!!!!

I might even suggest that if they see my daughter packing a .45 open on the trail...that the cops should leave her alone...just like the potential muggers will do.

I think i'm pretty well prepared. I will report back after the meeting.
 
#17 ·
Good luck, waiting to hear back on this.

I'm sure you'll get the usual political double talk you around the corner and "we'll look into it". But if it's never brought up, it'll never be changed.
 
#18 ·
OK then…Here is the report from last night.

I think it went really well and I will admit that I went in with some pre-conceived ideas of what I would encounter.

I briefly presented the facts: I read the State Uniform Firearm Law (All laws reserved to the state) and then read the pertinent part that shows the only exception is regulating the discharge of a firearms (state municipal code).

They, Council and Mayor, basically agreed with me and said that they need to be in alignment with the state code. They also agreed with me 100% that a person has a right to defend themselves by carrying a firearm (legally) while using the parks and trails.

The OC topic came up because the mayor asked me if I was speaking of (legally) concealed. I responded that for me, I conceal carry 99% of the time but there may be reasons that some people would choose to, or need to OC because they may not be old enough to have a CFP or that they may have other legal reasons to OC. The mayor said he is aware that OC is legal.
It was a very positive conversation.

After the meeting I was able to have a conversation with SGPD Chief Stratton and Deputy Chief Russell Peck. They also agreed that the ordinance needs to be changed. They seam to be knowledgeable about CC laws and the legality of open-carry and told me that their procedure is that if there is a call, they will try to talk to the RP (reporting person) to see if the guy carrying the gun is doing something suspicious…(or just buying underwear while just happening to have a gun in view).
They also went on to say that they wish people would not open carry because it freaks people out and they need to handle the calls (that can become annoying). They made it clear that it was legal and they would respect it but their personal opinion was that Concealed was a better option. They said they loved the fact that honest citizens were armed and have been helped in the past by those that took responsibility in the community.

Larry M.

St. George, UT
 
#25 ·
Nice to hear things went so well.

RustyShackleford said:
They also went on to say that they wish people would not open carry because it freaks people out and they need to handle the calls (that can become annoying). They made it clear that it was legal and they would respect it but their personal opinion was that Concealed was a better option.
Guess you have to admire their honesty here. They basically said, "Don't OC 'cause it makes our jobs a little harder."
 
#26 ·
Their jobs would be easier if all the 911 call center operators and dispatchers had a script to follow:

Caller: There is a man with a gun.

Operator: Is he threatening anyone? Is the gun out of the holster?

Caller: No but he has a gun.

Operator: Sounds like he is a law abiding citizen. Under Utah law a citizen has the right to carry a gun. Call us back if he draws it out of the holster and/or threatens anyone with it. Goodbye!

The end. No additional work.
 
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