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Utah Valley Gun Show

7K views 20 replies 10 participants last post by  bagpiper 
#1 ·
Utah county gun show in Provo!
Link: http://www.utahvalleyguns.com/
Anyone going?
I got a couple things ill try to sell. Anybody here looking for a colt ace conversion kit for series 80 1911s?

I've never been to a gun show. So I hope it goes well.
 
#2 ·
I was planning on going until I read the rules and they won't allow a valid CCW holder to bring in their loaded gun even if they don't intend to ever remove it from their holster.

So if I wanted to carry my Glock 23 in and had absolutely no plans to remove it and was only going to the gun show to get some AR-15 mags, they don't allow that.

I'm still trying to decide if I still want to support them after finding this out.
 
#3 ·
XSlevinn said:
I was planning on going until I read the rules and they won't allow a valid CCW holder to bring in their loaded gun even if they don't intend to ever remove it from their holster.

So if I wanted to carry my Glock 23 in and had absolutely no plans to remove it and was only going to the gun show to get some AR-15 mags, they don't allow that.

I'm still trying to decide if I still want to support them after finding this out.
That's pretty typical of all gun shows. That's when the saying "Concealed is concealed" applies.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
 
#7 ·
What is most interesting about this gun show and their rules is that this show is sponsored and operated by Utah Valley Convention Center which is an agency of Utah County. This makes their rules a violation of UCA 53-5a-102(5).

I went over for a couple of hours because I was given a ticket. There were a few interesting things, but nothing I'd go out of my way for. I saw a few things that were reasonably priced, but most things were still high.
 
#11 ·
moulton said:
Yeah the gun show was mediocre... I bought some medical supplies and snagged 4 steel ak mags for $15/pce... pretty good considering the cheapest ones I can find online are used and going for $13 plus $8 shipping.
Check slickguns.com, I have seen the Magpul PMags going for the $12-$13 dollar range...
 
#12 ·
XSlevinn said:
I was planning on going until I read the rules and they won't allow a valid CCW holder to bring in their loaded gun even if they don't intend to ever remove it from their holster.
These days, virtually every gun show has rules or at least strong requests not to carry loaded guns into the show.

I've yet to see or hear of a gun show in Utah using metal detectors or other active means to detect concealed guns, and with no violation of law for ignoring the rules and carrying concealed, I'd say it is a legitimate case of "concealed means concealed."

I will also repeat what I've said on this topic in the past. Gun shows are a unique environment when it comes to guns and gun safety. They are one of only about 3 public locations where it is legally and socially acceptable to be handling guns. The other two are gun ranges and gun stores. Gun ranges have a very definite "down range" where it is safe to point guns. Gun stores typically have much higher employee-to-customer ratios than do gun shows, while also having better "safe areas" for pointing guns as they are handled, sighted, etc (an exterior block wall, for example).

Gun shows have a lot of gun handling, with a lot supervision, and a lot less ability to find a safe direction to point a gun (other than straight up or straight down).

Yes, perfect adherence to the safety rules would still prevent any problems. But people are not perfect and a rule about "no loaded guns" at least requires those who are going to concealed in contradiction of the rules to keep their personal guns strictly concealed and holstered. No "quick checks" to see if the gun fits a new holster, or what not.

Gun shows have been and remain under fairly serious political attack by those who hate RKBA and self-reliance generally.

Any and every injury at a gun show gets a lot media play. So for both practical as well as political reasons, it makes sense to have different rules at gun shows than at the grocery store or city park. Now, when it gets to be legally and socially acceptable for me to pull out my sidearm in the aisle of Safeway to show it off when I run into an old friend while shopping..... :D

Charles
 
#13 ·
bagpiper said:
These days, virtually every gun show has rules or at least strong requests not to carry loaded guns into the show.
This gun show was operated by an agency of Utah County. Just because it is a gun show, they are not exempt from the law. UCA 52-5a-102 specifically prohibits them from enacting or enforcing ANY rule that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms.

Explain to me how an agency (Utah County Sheriff, who was enforcing the rules) can blatantly violate the law and then claim to have any moral authority to enforce any other law?
 
#14 ·
rpyne said:
What is most interesting about this gun show and their rules is that this show is sponsored and operated by Utah Valley Convention Center which is an agency of Utah County.
Do you have a source to support this assertion? The ad in the link in the OP just lists the Daily Herald as the sponsor and www.utahvalleyguns.com doesn't have anything on their site to suggest involvement by a government agency. Is there additional advertising or documentation that indicates the Utah Valley Convention Center is doing other than renting/leasing the facility to a group?
 
#15 ·
rpyne said:
This gun show was operated by an agency of Utah County. Just because it is a gun show, they are not exempt from the law. UCA 52-5a-102 specifically prohibits them from enacting or enforcing ANY rule that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms.
I wasn't aware the show was being run by a government agency. And as much as I love guns and RKBA, my first question would why any agency of government is competing with private business by running a gun show? Unless we have decided to get serious about mustering out the militia and the government is going to take an active hand in making sure they are armed, I think this falls outside the proper role of government.

That said, let me speak heresy here. If it is deemed proper for a government agency to run a gun show, I'll be the first in line to support a specific, legislative exemption to allow that government agency to regulate guns at the gun show, as long as there are not criminal penalties for violating the rules. IE, absent an injury the worst penalty is being booted from the show if you are discovered.

It is said that when the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the facts are not on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.

What I have repeatedly written here about gun shows being unique environments that justify some special rules for guns makes enough sense to me that if government agencies are actually going to run gun shows, I'll support a change in the law to permit those agencies to do what a private show can do today relative to restricting loaded guns inside the show.

Obviously, until the law is changed, everyone should obey it.

Flame away.

Charles
 
#16 ·
Car Knocker said:
rpyne said:
What is most interesting about this gun show and their rules is that this show is sponsored and operated by Utah Valley Convention Center which is an agency of Utah County.
Do you have a source to support this assertion? The ad in the link in the OP just lists the Daily Herald as the sponsor and http://www.utahvalleyguns.com doesn't have anything on their site to suggest involvement by a government agency. Is there additional advertising or documentation that indicates the Utah Valley Convention Center is doing other than renting/leasing the facility to a group?
My source is the Utah County Clerk/Auditor, the Utah County Sheriff, and several staff members at the show. While the advertising says "sponsored by" the Daily Herald, several pieces of advertising also listed an advertising company as a sponsor, as well as the Utah Valley Convention Center, which is an agency of Utah County.
 
#17 ·
bagpiper said:
I wasn't aware the show was being run by a government agency. And as much as I love guns and RKBA, my first question would why any agency of government is competing with private business by running a gun show? Unless we have decided to get serious about mustering out the militia and the government is going to take an active hand in making sure they are armed, I think this falls outside the proper role of government.
So does running a convention center fall outside the proper role of government, but they have never let that get in the way. The contractor that operates the Convention Center on behalf of Utah County thought it would be a good way to bring more business, and hence revenue, to the Convention Center.

bagpiper said:
That said, let me speak heresy here. If it is deemed proper for a government agency to run a gun show, I'll be the first in line to support a specific, legislative exemption to allow that government agency to regulate guns at the gun show, as long as there are not criminal penalties for violating the rules. IE, absent an injury the worst penalty is being booted from the show if you are discovered.

It is said that when the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the facts are not on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.

What I have repeatedly written here about gun shows being unique environments that justify some special rules for guns makes enough sense to me that if government agencies are actually going to run gun shows, I'll support a change in the law to permit those agencies to do what a private show can do today relative to restricting loaded guns inside the show.

Obviously, until the law is changed, everyone should obey it.
If you can make an exception for a gun show, you can find justification for any exception you want. Principles don't have exceptions.
 
#18 ·
rpyne said:
If you can make an exception for a gun show, you can find justification for any exception you want. Principles don't have exceptions.
And the principle here is that exceptional circumstances justify and require some exceptional rules. When you can show me any other venue where it is legally and socially acceptable to handle, work the actions on, and sight firearms--often without any chance of not violating the rules about not pointing at anything you don't want to destroy and having a solid backstop--we may well find another exceptional circumstance where exceptional rules are warranted.

Until then....well, there is a reason that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.

Or in other words, I'm still waiting for someone to credibly tell me that they expect they would react the same way to drawn gun on the milk aisle in Harmons as they do to seeing guns drawn, sighted, and the actions worked at a gun show.

Charles
 
#19 ·
bagpiper said:
And the principle here is that exceptional circumstances justify and require some exceptional rules. When you can show me any other venue where it is legally and socially acceptable to handle, work the actions on, and sight firearms--often without any chance of not violating the rules about not pointing at anything you don't want to destroy and having a solid backstop--we may well find another exceptional circumstance where exceptional rules are warranted.

Until then....well, there is a reason that "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy.

Or in other words, I'm still waiting for someone to credibly tell me that they expect they would react the same way to drawn gun on the milk aisle in Harmons as they do to seeing guns drawn, sighted, and the actions worked at a gun show.
We have to agree to disagree on this one. Unless rights are absolute they cease to exist.
 
#21 ·
rpyne said:
We have to agree to disagree on this one. Unless rights are absolute they cease to exist.
Demonstrably false.

My right to practice my religion is subject to various restrictions including no human sacrifice (even if the sacrifice is willing). Yet the right remains functionally intact.

Even as my RKBA is subject to numerous unnecessary and unconstitutional restrictions, it has gained additional statutory respect over the last two decades. It has grown, not diminished. It is simply beyond silly to suggest that banning private firearms from inside jails and prisons somehow threatens the RKBA.

The problem with absolute statements is that it is often so easy to find counter-examples simply by looking for some not-so-difficult extremes.

Charles
 
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