Open carry loaded

Discuss issues regarding open carry.

Open carry loaded

Postby abrian8 » Tue 17 Jan 2012 11:47 am

OK friends...don't shoot...I am gonna ask for help in finding the information. I know that it is here I just can't find it and need to share the information with a friend. I guess my use of the search tools just plain stink.

My friend just got his CFP. He and I had a discussion regarding open carry loaded with a CFP. His moron CFP instructor told him that you could not do that. Went to the infamous "concealed means concealed" crap.

I know the law and I know that his instructor is 100% incorrect. I am always willing to share information but I always tell the people that I share it with that they need to do their own research on the laws and determine for themselves that the information is correct rather than just taking someones word for it.

Thanks in advance and sorry for asking the question that we all know the answer to.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby [CZ]Dusty » Tue 17 Jan 2012 11:53 am

I think you missed a question mark somwhere, but your right. With your concealed weapons permit, you may open carry with a loaded firearm. I'm sure someone can easily reference the law that states something like "you can carry openly, but not loaded in Utah.." and then it states something like "with a CFP, you are exempt from this".

A non-permit holder must be (from what I understand) two actions away from firing. This could mean racking one in and pulling the trigger, or could even mean taking off the safety and then pulling the trigger.. so is carrying loaded, with the safety on really illegal? A cop buddy of mine once told me that as long as it took two actions to fire, that's all I would need to be legal, so interpretation is a factor here.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby Snurd » Tue 17 Jan 2012 11:59 am

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050500.htm
76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street. (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm: (a) in or on a vehicle, unless: (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle; (b) on a public street; or (c) in a posted prohibited area. (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle. (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle. (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.


This section below exempts CFP holders.
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052300.htm

76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws. (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following: (a) a United States marshal; (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm; (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction; (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711; (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711; (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is: (i) unloaded; and (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501. (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued: (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or (b) by another state or county.


--------
There is no law stating OC is illegal, that is why it is legal. There is also no law stating that with a CFP you must conceal. So you can OC or CC.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby Snurd » Tue 17 Jan 2012 12:04 pm

Here is a thread that may help in the future. It has some of the main laws on there. Also a Google docs link.

viewtopic.php?t=9298
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby abrian8 » Tue 17 Jan 2012 1:51 pm

Thank you. That's the stuff I was looking for. Just couldn't find it. Still need to work on my search skills.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby Snurd » Tue 17 Jan 2012 3:15 pm

I keep a copy of the laws on my phone. Also a link to the laws online. Very handy.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby UtahCFP » Tue 17 Jan 2012 5:27 pm

Go to this thread -- viewtopic.php?f=33&t=2304#p19439 -- and download the .mp3 file. You can listen to our attorney general speaking plainly about how a permit holder can carry open and loaded. Send this .mp3 to the instructor who apparently has some confusion on the subject.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby jaredbelch » Tue 17 Jan 2012 10:17 pm

[CZ]Dusty wrote:...
or could even mean taking off the safety and then pulling the trigger.. so is carrying loaded, with the safety on really illegal? A cop buddy of mine once told me that as long as it took two actions to fire, that's all I would need to be legal, so interpretation is a factor here.


Taking the safety off does NOT count as an action, or rather the law says there cannot be a round in the firing position to be considered unloaded.

This does not apply if you have a permit.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby Snurd » Tue 17 Jan 2012 10:36 pm

^^
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050200.htm
76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position. (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired. (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby [CZ]Dusty » Wed 18 Jan 2012 9:17 am

Thank you for the correction, it pays to know what your talking about I guess. Interesting how most individuals will swear to the grave that they know the carry laws, when they are really only basing their information off of what someone has told them.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby YoZUpZ » Wed 18 Jan 2012 9:20 am

jaredbelch wrote:
[CZ]Dusty wrote:...
or could even mean taking off the safety and then pulling the trigger.. so is carrying loaded, with the safety on really illegal? A cop buddy of mine once told me that as long as it took two actions to fire, that's all I would need to be legal, so interpretation is a factor here.


Taking the safety off does NOT count as an action, or rather the law says there cannot be a round in the firing position to be considered unloaded.

This does not apply if you have a permit.


I think taking the safety off does count as an action, BUT the law states that the gun must be 2 actions away from firing AND there cannot be a round in the firing positon as you mentioned.

In a semi-auto pistol, racking the slide and pulling the trigger is the two-actions required, so whether the safety is on or off is a non-issue. but as you stated, the important thing is that there cannot be a round in the firing position.

In a semi-auto pistol, no round in the chamber meets these requirements. In a revolver, no round under the hammer and no round in the next cylinder meets the requirements.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby Car Knocker » Wed 18 Jan 2012 9:54 am

YoZUpZ wrote:In a revolver, no round under the hammer and no round in the next cylinder meets the requirements.

Well, not necessarily. That would be true for a double-action revolver but a single-action revolver would only need the chamber under the hammer at rest to be empty; cocking the hammer (and thus rotating the cylinder) and pulling the trigger would constitute the required two actions.
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby YoZUpZ » Thu 19 Jan 2012 7:52 pm

Car Knocker wrote:
YoZUpZ wrote:In a revolver, no round under the hammer and no round in the next cylinder meets the requirements.

Well, not necessarily. That would be true for a double-action revolver but a single-action revolver would only need the chamber under the hammer at rest to be empty; cocking the hammer (and thus rotating the cylinder) and pulling the trigger would constitute the required two actions.

Good call... I've never seen anyone carrying a single-action revolver except for cowboy action shooting and the old western movies, I guess that's why I left it out :lol2:
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby UtahCFP » Fri 20 Jan 2012 2:52 pm

The NAA .22 has a little notch in the cylinder between the chambers, so you can lower the hammer into the notch to safe the pistol. Kinda cool, really - cylinder can't rotate, hammer can't fall. It takes two actions to fire a round; cock the hammer (which rotates the cylinder), and then pull the trigger.
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So, with the hammer in the notch, there is no round in the firing position. It takes two mechanical actions to fire the pistol. Is this gun "Utah unloaded" with all chambers loaded when the hammer is in the notch? :raisedbrow:
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Re: Open carry loaded

Postby Snowman » Fri 20 Jan 2012 3:08 pm

^^ sure sounds like it to me. You described the requirerments, and the pistol meets them.
No round under the hammer? Check.
No round in position where a single pull of the trigger will fire a round? Check.
Are to actions required to fire? Yes.

Seems fine.
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