Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

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Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby DiscoLives4ever » Sat 18 Feb 2012 9:52 am

I know merely carrying a gun does not qualify as RAS, but if you are doing o in a location that would require a permit per GFSZ are police able to perform a Terry stop?
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby gravedancer » Sat 18 Feb 2012 10:28 am

i would imagine that the cop that stops you would say so.
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby DiscoLives4ever » Sat 18 Feb 2012 12:21 pm

gravedancer wrote:i would imagine that the cop that stops you would say so.


But do the courts/laws support that?
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby UtahJarhead » Sat 18 Feb 2012 2:18 pm

Lund vs SLC says that mere possession is NOT RAS to stop a person.

They must have some kind of evidence that you did, are, or are about to commit a crime.
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby GenkiSudo » Sat 18 Feb 2012 2:22 pm

I'll just throw this up as a reference:

77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.


On a quick Google I found http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/pub ... 009_04.pdf (pages 3-5)

Might also want to take a read over State vs Warren. While not directly related, courts usually come back to the 'totality of the circumstances'. I personally don't think so but IANAL and it's going to cost a lot of money to test it if someone doesn't have a CWP.

And, of course, as above....Lund vs SLC.
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Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby JoeSparky » Sat 18 Feb 2012 3:45 pm

And Utah's GFSZs are now the property ONLY. No roving zones!!!
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby UtahJarhead » Sat 18 Feb 2012 6:19 pm

JoeSparky wrote:And Utah's GFSZs are now the property ONLY. No roving zones!!!

You know... I should have thought of that. I totally forgot about it... there is no 1000' rule in Utah anymore.
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby DaKnife » Sat 18 Feb 2012 7:58 pm

Only with a CFP are the 1000' zones gone. I'd say with or without a permit, being within the zone of a school with a visible firearm is reasonable suspicion due to the Federal Law. If nothing else the officer needs to verify if you have a CFP. If so he should just let you continue on as the RAS has just evaporated. But thanks to the Federal law, being within the zone is RAS, as until the officer can verify you are authorized by the state, (CFP) you are in all appearances violating the law.
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Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby JoeSparky » Sat 18 Feb 2012 8:32 pm

DaKnife wrote:Only with a CFP are the 1000' zones gone. I'd say with or without a permit, being within the zone of a school with a visible firearm is reasonable suspicion due to the Federal Law. If nothing else the officer needs to verify if you have a CFP. If so he should just let you continue on as the RAS has just evaporated. But thanks to the Federal law, being within the zone is RAS, as until the officer can verify you are authorized by the state, (CFP) you are in all appearances violating the law.

the officer needs to verify nothing! Same principle as pulling over drivers to see if they have a dl. Courts have ruled that this is unconstitutional. If they have ruled it unconstitutional for a licensed activity they would need ever more RASFor a constitutionally protected activity. Just saying
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby Utah_patriot » Sat 18 Feb 2012 8:49 pm

No 1000 foot rule for anyone

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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby Joe Cool » Sat 18 Feb 2012 10:47 pm

Could we get a link to the relevant code supporting that there is no 1000' law for anyone?
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby Kevin Jensen » Sat 18 Feb 2012 11:20 pm

Joe Cool wrote:Could we get a link to the relevant code supporting that there is no 1000' law for anyone?


This is the bill that changed it. ----> http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/hbillenr/hb0075.htm

Below is how the law reads now...

76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) As used in this section, "on or about school premises" means:
(a) (i) in a public or private elementary or secondary school; or
(ii) on the grounds of any of those schools;
(b) (i) in a public or private institution of higher education; or
(ii) on the grounds of a public or private institution of higher education; and
(iii) (A) inside the building where a preschool or child care is being held, if the entire building is being used for the operation of the preschool or child care; or
(B) if only a portion of a building is being used to operate a preschool or child care, in that room or rooms where the preschool or child care operation is being held.

(2) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in this section.
(3) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(4) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property; or
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students.
(5) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.


...and this is what it used to say about 1000 feet.

76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1). <---- (this is the link to the "1000 foot rule")
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby UtahJarhead » Sun 19 Feb 2012 12:56 am

There's still the Federal GFSZ to think about, folks. It's still got the 1000' rule. A school zone is defined as any area within 1000 feet of the actual school building.
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby RustyShackleford » Sun 19 Feb 2012 9:04 am

JoeSparky wrote:
DaKnife wrote:Only with a CFP are the 1000' zones gone. I'd say with or without a permit, being within the zone of a school with a visible firearm is reasonable suspicion due to the Federal Law. If nothing else the officer needs to verify if you have a CFP. If so he should just let you continue on as the RAS has just evaporated. But thanks to the Federal law, being within the zone is RAS, as until the officer can verify you are authorized by the state, (CFP) you are in all appearances violating the law.

the officer needs to verify nothing! Same principle as pulling over drivers to see if they have a dl. Courts have ruled that this is unconstitutional. If they have ruled it unconstitutional for a licensed activity they would need ever more RASFor a constitutionally protected activity. Just saying

+1. this would be a "Papers please, must see your papers" sort of stop.
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Re: Is OC within 1000 feet of a school RAS?

Postby DiscoLives4ever » Sun 19 Feb 2012 9:44 am

RustyShackleford wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
DaKnife wrote:Only with a CFP are the 1000' zones gone. I'd say with or without a permit, being within the zone of a school with a visible firearm is reasonable suspicion due to the Federal Law. If nothing else the officer needs to verify if you have a CFP. If so he should just let you continue on as the RAS has just evaporated. But thanks to the Federal law, being within the zone is RAS, as until the officer can verify you are authorized by the state, (CFP) you are in all appearances violating the law.

the officer needs to verify nothing! Same principle as pulling over drivers to see if they have a dl. Courts have ruled that this is unconstitutional. If they have ruled it unconstitutional for a licensed activity they would need ever more RASFor a constitutionally protected activity. Just saying

+1. this would be a "Papers please, must see your papers" sort of stop.


I think these three quotes take care of where my concern was. Thanks!
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