Utah Guns Forum banner

my confrontation with officer Atwood of Lone Peak

9K views 24 replies 18 participants last post by  Utah_patriot 
#1 ·
My girlfriend and I stopped in Highland to get gas and a drink. I am "casual carry" (owb with an unbuttoned shirt that hangs over the firearm). I notice the police car but did not see the officer. While in nthe gas staion checking out the drink selection, Officer Atwood approaces me from behind with a "hey buddy, it either has to be totaly open or totally concealed" And goes on to mention something about how open carry has to have 4 inches of the firearm showing.
I asked him 4 times where in the law It said that, the only time he responded to my question was after I had taken down his name and mentioned talking to the BCI about him and his assertation. To which his response was, "I've read it.". He went on to explain he was not tring to be confronting, but just to help me stay within the law. I told him I dont appreciate an officer trying to enforce laws that don't exist. He left me and my girlfriend alone after that.

Ok, so I could have handled it better. But the way he approached me irked me.

Edited for grammar
 
#2 ·
cdrhoad said:
My girlfriend and I stopped in Highland to get gas and a drink. I am "casual carry" (owb with an unbuttoned shirt that hangs over the firearm). I notice the police car but did not see the officer. While in nthe gas staion checking out the drink selection, Officer Atwood approaces me from behind with a "hey buddy, it either has to be totaly open or totally concealed" And goes on to mention something about how open carry has to have 4 inches of the firearm showing.
I asked him 4 times where in the law It said that, the only time he responded to my question was after I had taken down his name and mentioned talking o he BCI about him and his assertation. To which his response was, "I've read it.". He went on to explain he was not tring to be confronting, but just to help me stay within the law. I told him I dont appreciate an officer trying to enforce laws that don't exist. He left me and my girlfriend alone after that.

Ok, so I could have handled it better. But the way he approached me made me irked me.
He said (in the emboldened red section above) that he was not trying to be confronting - that was a lie, he definitely was. He lied again, which you did catch, and call him on, when he said you had to either be completely open, or fully concealed. You called him on it and he backed down because you were not going to back down and had him by the short hairs and he knew it. You did fine in how you handled it. If this happens again you could have dispatch on speed dial and ask him to hold a minute and then call for the Officer of the Watch to come and correct this officer who is harassing you concerning non existent laws. That might actually embarrass him enough that he might just leave.
 
#3 ·
If he had continued I would have called the officer of the watch but he didn't. I should have turned my camera on and had my girlfriend film it. Oh well.

I have contacted the BCI about his behavior, and will contact his supervisor on Monday when the station is open again. The lone peak police do not have a valid email address that I could find. There is one listed on the Facebook page but it does not work.
 
#4 ·
I think you did fine. It seems that the officer backed down when he realized that you knew what you were talking about. Probably the fact that you were taking down his info helped him back down as well.

I probably would have asked him to show me the law that he was trying to explain. I have a link on my phone to it, so I can bring it up quick.
 
#6 ·
You did fine!

I'll bet he could site any traffic law, chapter and verse because that is the revenue source. When an officer starts telling you falsehoods or trying to enforce opinion under color of his "perceived" authority, he needs to be shown he can not lie and get away with it. If an officer can not know simple laws about a piece of equipment he is allowed to carry as part of his job, He is ignorant and potentially dangerous to himself and law abiding citizens that choose to lawfully defend themselves. And frankly if he does not know Gun Laws that We CFP holders are required to know and be tested on, He should have his firearm taken away from him till he meets the minimum standards required of a person with a CFP.
 
#9 ·
I am in trouble now. Just what is one to do when OCing a NAA mini revolver that is less than 4 inches in total length if I must have 4 inches exposed for it to be OC'd!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#10 ·
you handled it fine IMO

you should call POST instead of BCI... that is Police Officer Standards and Training where BCI is criminal investigation related items
 
#11 ·
cdrhoad said:
Ok, so I could have handled it better. But the way he approached me made me irked me.
Despite being a victim of never having had the luck of meeting an intelligent peace officer professionally when I needed one while knowing several of them personally, I usually behave civilly with an officer. But, if the officer gets all "lawyer" with me, my experience in administrative law, and drafting legislation and rules gives me a better-than-average chance of out-lawyering the officer. My plan B is to say nothing beyond "Are you detaining me?", "Are you arresting me?", "What law do you believe I violated?" and "Am I free to go?"

ABCNEWS.GO.COM: "Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops" (Sept. 8, 2000)
(http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barr ... y?id=95836)
 
#12 ·
JoeSparky said:
I am in trouble now. Just what is one to do when OCing a NAA mini revolver that is less than 4 inches in total length if I must have4 inches exposed for it to be OC'd!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That was actually one of my first thoughts after he left. I was fully prepared to stop talking and use the am I being detained, am I free to go etc. But I didn't feel he was going to make a move to arrest.
 
#13 ·
You handled the situation awesome, thank you for not backing down and for handling it the way you did :thumbsup:

Can someone help me understand the following:
Who is the officer of the watch? What is his duty? how can you get a hold of him and when should you get a hold of him?

How do you, and when should you contact Police Officer Standards and Training?
Who is POST?
 
#14 ·
Jonny Salsman said:
You handled the situation awesome, thank you for not backing down and for handling it the way you did :thumbsup:

Can someone help me understand the following:
Who is the officer of the watch? What is his duty? how can you get a hold of him and when should you get a hold of him?

How do you, and when should you contact Police Officer Standards and Training?
Who is POST?
Officer of the Watch is the HMFIC, what ever his title is he is the cop with the most rank that runs the entire shift while the Sheriff or Chief of Police is asleep.... call dispatch he can be reached that way... really you should get a hold of a Sgt first

google UT POST you can find it... they are in charge of saying who can and cant be a cop...
 
#16 ·
Sam Fidler said:
cdrhoad said:
I told him I dont appreciate an officer trying to enforce laws that don't exist.
made me :spit:

Well stated.
I just call them OPINION ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#17 ·
This is no good! I'm going to start OC'ing in the Highland/American Fork area in about two weeks. I've been impressed with all the AF cops I've met (Detective Anderson actually taught one of my high school classes) but I've never met a Highland/LP cop.

Sent from Fiji via carrier pigeon
 
#21 ·
RustyShackleford said:
You did fine!
I'll bet he could site any traffic law, chapter and verse because that is the revenue source. When an officer starts telling you falsehoods or trying to enforce opinion under color of his "perceived" authority, he needs to be shown he can not lie and get away with it. If an officer can not know simple laws about a piece of equipment he is allowed to carry as part of his job, He is ignorant and potentially dangerous to himself and law abiding citizens that choose to lawfully defend themselves. And frankly if he does not know Gun Laws that We CFP holders are required to know and be tested on, He should have his firearm taken away from him till he meets the minimum standards required of a person with a CFP.
Tested on? What test did you as a CFP have to take? Hopefully not the same one that this officer had to take? :wink:
 
#22 ·
dewittdj said:
RustyShackleford said:
You did fine!
I'll bet he could site any traffic law, chapter and verse because that is the revenue source. When an officer starts telling you falsehoods or trying to enforce opinion under color of his "perceived" authority, he needs to be shown he can not lie and get away with it. If an officer can not know simple laws about a piece of equipment he is allowed to carry as part of his job, He is ignorant and potentially dangerous to himself and law abiding citizens that choose to lawfully defend themselves. And frankly if he does not know Gun Laws that We CFP holders are required to know and be tested on, He should have his firearm taken away from him till he meets the minimum standards required of a person with a CFP.
Tested on? What test did you as a CFP have to take? Hopefully not the same one that this officer had to take? :wink:
We are tested every time we are confronted by these OEO's, and not just our knowledge but also how confident we are that our understanding is correct.
 
#24 ·
76-10-504 used to read, that concealment without a permit, of a 4" barreled or longer pistol was lawful while hunting. That's the only 4 inch reference I can think of that may have confused him.

(5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur: (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.
 
#25 ·
I hope that you don't mind this but I think it would be of help to the OP my Name is Zach Wellman and here is the interaction with Lone Peak and I today I hope you don't mind me referring to you as my friend I consider this fourm all my friends

Zach Wellman A year ago officer Atwood approached a friend of mine at a gas station and stated firearm either had to be concealed or open the firearm was being openly carried I still have not found that code that he was referring to that he stated he had read?
49 mins · Like

Lone Peak Police Utah Zach I'm not sure what your question is but codes 76-10-504 and 76-10-505 might help you.
41 mins · Like

Zach Wellman Sorry Officer Atwood with your department stated that either your firearm has to be concealed or open carried it can't be in between or partially covered. He stated he had read this I can't find it anywhere in Utah code where he would have read this.
38 mins · Like

Lone Peak Police Utah Zach, if he had a concealed permit the weapon has to be "CONCEALED" and concealed is defined as "covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence." I spoke to Officer Atwood and he remembers this and the issue was that the gun was NOT FULLY concealed and therefore was considered open carried and could not be "loaded" as per what the law defines as "loaded."
30 mins · Like

Zach Wellman Thank you according to Utah law you can carry openly loaded with a valid CFP I just confirmed this with BCI today in fact I just left their office. I believe you're wrong in this would you look into this for me.
22 mins · Like

Lone Peak Police Utah Zach sorry I was wrong.(Just because I'm a cop, don't mean I know everything) The wording on some laws can be complicated, but yes you are right.
10 mins · Unlike · 1

Zach Wellman Thank you I just enroute to speak with the chief after his meeting. I might still stop by and say hi. Thank you for all the hard work and dedication you put into keeping citizens safe.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top