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Open Carry in Arches

7K views 15 replies 8 participants last post by  DaKnife 
#1 ·
I think I know the answer but need to bounce this off all of you who are "up to date" on this.

A friend is heading down to Moab and has not received their CCW permit yet even though they have completed the class. They want to OC in Arches. I believe this is allowed as long as they stay out of Federal bldgs and bldgs where Federal employees work.

Alan
 
#4 ·
I do believe you can carry in a federal building if they don't post a no firearms sign on their main enterence the national parks do have a sign however on all their visitors centers. The only federal building that does not have to post a sign is a Post Office. This changes from state to state depending on local laws. The only on firearms signs that hold legal weight in Utah are the ones on federal buildings.
If I am wrong someone please tell me. I am speaking as a person with ccw without one the rules may be different
 
#5 ·
karatelyle said:
I do believe you can carry in a federal building if they don't post a no firearms sign on their main enterence the national parks do have a sign however on all their visitors centers. The only federal building that does not have to post a sign is a Post Office. This changes from state to state depending on local laws. The only on firearms signs that hold legal weight in Utah are the ones on federal buildings.
If I am wrong someone please tell me. I am speaking as a person with ccw without one the rules may be different
You are correct. However, as a personal rule, I would suggest never testing those waters. If it wasn't posted, you would be exonerated in court but you likely take a ride, temporarily be relieved of your firearm until the issue was resolved and let's not talk about the financial impact.

IMHO, the risk does not justify entering a facility.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#6 ·
18 USC 930(a) said:
The term "Federal Facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
So like Snaggle said, you will be found innocent of having committed a crime, but you can still be charged and have to pay a lawyer, etc.
 
#8 ·
I went iwb last month while I was in Moab visiting Arches, Canyonlands, and Dead Horse Pointe. Left it locked in my car when Inside the visitor centers. Except for Dead Horse Point (state park). I wanted to wear my open carry holster so they would all see the empty holster while I was in the gun free aeras, but my wife didn't like that idea.
 
#9 ·
UtahJarhead said:
18 USC 930(a) said:
The term "Federal Facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
So like Snaggle said, you will be found innocent of having committed a crime, but you can still be charged and have to pay a lawyer, etc.
karatelyle said:
I do believe you can carry in a federal building if they don't post a no firearms sign on their main enterence the national parks do have a sign however on all their visitors centers. The only federal building that does not have to post a sign is a Post Office. This changes from state to state depending on local laws. The only on firearms signs that hold legal weight in Utah are the ones on federal buildings.
If I am wrong someone please tell me. I am speaking as a person with ccw without one the rules may be different
Post office prohibition is a different statute and also covers the parking lots. This law does state "for lawful purposes" but the post office does not recognize self defence as a lawful purpose!
 
#10 ·
Though a Colorado court case working through the system may overturn the parking lot rule. Also remember the Utah loaded only applies to on a public streets. Not that I recommend frequent chambering and unchambering but once off the roads onto the trails (Hiking type not driving) there is no legal requirement to be Utah unloaded.
 
#11 ·
DaKnife said:
Though a Colorado court case working through the system may overturn the parking lot rule. Also remember the Utah loaded only applies to on a public streets. Not that I recommend frequent chambering and unchambering but once off the roads onto the trails (Hiking type not driving) there is no legal requirement to be Utah unloaded.
I assume you are talking about Bonidy? If so, no. That covers ONLY Mr. and Mrs. Bonidy and only in that specific post office building.
 
#12 ·
DaKnife said:
Though a Colorado court case working through the system may overturn the parking lot rule. Also remember the Utah loaded only applies to on a public streets. Not that I recommend frequent chambering and unchambering but once off the roads onto the trails (Hiking type not driving) there is no legal requirement to be Utah unloaded.
Another "gotcha" is Utah in its statutes does not define "road"!
 
#13 ·
UtahJarhead said:
DaKnife said:
Though a Colorado court case working through the system may overturn the parking lot rule. Also remember the Utah loaded only applies to on a public streets. Not that I recommend frequent chambering and unchambering but once off the roads onto the trails (Hiking type not driving) there is no legal requirement to be Utah unloaded.
I assume you are talking about Bonidy? If so, no. That covers ONLY Mr. and Mrs. Bonidy and only in that specific post office building.
For Now, but as it gets appealed up the chain the application could become a national ruling. And in contesting the appeal by the Post Office, Bonidy appealed the fact that the ruling did not allow concealed carry inside the unsecured public areas of the post office. While I'm not hopeful on that one, considering even the liberal 9th has been ruling pro 2a Rights I have a good feeling that this could be extended to a nationwide declaration of the Post Office rules being unconstitutional. At least as per parking lots. Honestly I don't see a win on inside the building, but allowing a citizen to leave a firearm in their vehicle legally while conducting business in the post office is a very likely outcome.

http://www.mountainstateslegal.org/...-v.-united-states-postal-service#.U4QA2XbVKSoFor those not overly familiar with this case or where it currently stands.
 
#14 ·
JoeSparky said:
DaKnife said:
Though a Colorado court case working through the system may overturn the parking lot rule. Also remember the Utah loaded only applies to on a public streets. Not that I recommend frequent chambering and unchambering but once off the roads onto the trails (Hiking type not driving) there is no legal requirement to be Utah unloaded.
Another "gotcha" is Utah in its statutes does not define "road"!
Guess again:
41-6a-102. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(52) (a) "Roadway" means that portion of highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel.
(b) "Roadway" does not include the sidewalk, berm, or shoulder, even though any of them are used by persons riding bicycles or other human-powered vehicles.
(c) "Roadway" refers to any roadway separately but not to all roadways collectively, if a highway includes two or more separate roadways.
or:
41-22-2. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(22) "Street or highway" means the entire width between boundary lines of every way or place of whatever nature, when any part of it is open to the use of the public for vehicular travel.
:p :mrgreen:
 
#15 ·
DaKnife said:
JoeSparky said:
DaKnife said:
Though a Colorado court case working through the system may overturn the parking lot rule. Also remember the Utah loaded only applies to on a public streets. Not that I recommend frequent chambering and unchambering but once off the roads onto the trails (Hiking type not driving) there is no legal requirement to be Utah unloaded.
Another "gotcha" is Utah in its statutes does not define "road"!
Guess again:
41-6a-102. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(52) (a) "Roadway" means that portion of highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel.
(b) "Roadway" does not include the sidewalk, berm, or shoulder, even though any of them are used by persons riding bicycles or other human-powered vehicles.
(c) "Roadway" refers to any roadway separately but not to all roadways collectively, if a highway includes two or more separate roadways.
or:
41-22-2. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(22) "Street or highway" means the entire width between boundary lines of every way or place of whatever nature, when any part of it is open to the use of the public for vehicular travel.
:p :mrgreen:
Definitions of "roadway", "street", or "highway", but not "road". Yep, I recognize it is minutia here and I've not heard of anyone in Utah being severely challenged by the Leo's on this except by not remembering the part about a public road.

And "road" is not defined in the firearms chapter in which the term is used.
 
#16 ·
The firearms chapter does not use the word road. It uses "public street" as where one may not carry Utah loaded without a permit. and when a definition is omitted it is because they rely on a definition from a preceding chapter, as the two I cited are where one would most expect to find street defined, lacking a different definition elsewhere in the code, that definition stands for the entirety of the code.
 
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