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Where can I carry my gun???

16K views 36 replies 12 participants last post by  UtahJarhead 
#1 ·
First, a little background. I already posted in the "Introduce Yourself" area, but I think it got deleted in the website update thingy. Anyway, I'm 18 years old and recently acquired a firearm of the concealable variety in a private transaction. I have a couple questions before I go around with it strapped to my side.

1) Can I open carry a pistol in Utah as an 18 year old?

2) Assuming that answer to 1 is yes, where would I be prohibited? I already understand no federal buildings (courthouses, post office, federal banks, etc)

3) Also assuming a yes to question 1, I must always keep the gun two stages away from firing yes? Rack slide, fire.

I think that's all for now. Thanks!
 
#2 ·
UCChris said:
First, a little background. I already posted in the "Introduce Yourself" area, but I think it got deleted in the website update thingy. Anyway, I'm 18 years old and recently acquired a firearm of the concealable variety in a private transaction. I have a couple questions before I go around with it strapped to my side.

1) Can I open carry a pistol in Utah as an 18 year old?
First, welcome and congrats. And thanks for looking for info before carrying. I highly suggest you go ahead and take the concealed carry course even though you can't yet get a Utah permit. The course is primarily about Utah law relative to carrying and the use of deadly force. We have several instructors on the forum and I can make introductions to a couple of others not on the forum if desired.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, and if something goes wrong, it will be you in jail, not me. :D But, that said, here is my best understanding...

Assuming you are not a "prohibited person" then yes as long as you adhere to other legal requirements. Prohibited person (effectively) means no felonies, no domestic violence misdemeanors, not a drug addict, not under the influence of or not in possession of any illicit drugs nor impaired by any drugs (legal or otherwise), never been adjudicated mentally incompetent. Some of these prohibitions are explicit in making you prohibited, others are not a lifetime ban, but effective in the moment. IE, don't carry while impaired by pain meds your doctor prescribes after surgery, but once you are not taking those, you are fine.

UCChris said:
2) Assuming that answer to 1 is yes, where would I be prohibited? I already understand no federal buildings (courthouses, post office, federal banks, etc)
In addition to federal facilities including National Park visitor centers, federal courthouses, post offices, military reservations, etc (and banks are not federal facilities, but I personally recommend against OCing into them unless you are personally well known) the list of off limit locations in Utah is fairly short:

Court houses (not technically off limits per law, but off limits per judicial "contempt of court" power. Same effective result for us, no guns).

Jails and prison.

The secure area of mental hospitals.

The secure area of the airport. Baggage claim and ticketing are ok. Do not attempt to go through the metal detectors.

Any private residence or house of worship that "gives notice" in one of several ways including signage or personal communication. Churches may also give notice via public notice in the paper every year and then being listed on the BCI webpage. All LDS houses of worship and a couple of other churches have given notice one way or another. Several churches have not given notice, though most prefer concealed carry rather than OC.

(Holding a permit to carry does not exempt you from the above.)

Buses and trains.

Under State law, the grounds and buildings of any preschool, K-12 school, or post-secondary school (includes colleges, universities, tech schools, and vocational schools including the hair salon in the strip mall that gives low cost hair cuts). If you are committing some other crime within 1000' of any of these, the presence of your otherwise legal gun becomes another crime.

You will need to double check on what limits there are on carrying a gun while hunting, if the gun can't be used on that hunt (such as when bow or black powder hunting).

(Holding any valid permit exempts you from the above as well as from the ban on concealed carry and the ban on carrying fully loaded.)

Under federal law, the grounds and buildings of any K-12 school, plus 1000' out from the edge of school property in all directions. In an urban area it is all but impossible not to violate this law unless you have a Utah permit to carry or keep the gun in your car.

(Only a permit issued by the State in which the school resides will exempt you from this law.)

UCChris said:
3) Also assuming a yes to question 1, I must always keep the gun two stages away from firing yes? Rack slide, fire.
The gun must be kept legally not "loaded". That means no round in firing position (regardless of whether that specific round could be fired normally) and no round such that the single actuation of any mechanism once will cause it to fire, per URS 76-10-502. In practical terms, for a semi-auto, this means no round in the chamber, but a fully charged magazine can be in the firearm. For revolvers it is a bit more complex.

Now, for a list of places not off limits:

Businesses that post "no gun" signs. These are private policies and violation is a private matter. Refusal to leave when asked, or returning after asked not to return may result in trespassing charges or some civil action.

This includes your place of employment unless you work in a legally defined secure area. It is not illegal to violate your bosses "no gun" policy. But it is also perfectly legal for him to fire you for doing so. We do have parking lot preemption which protects you from adverse employment action so long as the gun is in your car, out of sight, and the car locked when you are not with it, even if you park in your employer's parking and they have a no-gun policy. The protection does not cover religious employment or certain other limited cases.

Bars (moot point for you) or restaurants that serve alcohol. Perfectly legal to take your gun into these and (when of age) even to imbibe if you so choose. You may not be intoxicated and in possession of a gun. Many will encourage you to avoid all alcohol consumption when carrying and that is a fine personal policy, but not legally required once you are legally able to drink.

Again, I highly encourage you to take the Utah concealed carry course and then read the laws yourself. It will be your butt on the line if you screw up so be sure you are familiar with the laws.

Again, welcome and best of luck.

Charles
 
#3 ·
Assuming you are not a "prohibited person" then yes as long as you adhere to other legal requirements. Prohibited person (effectively) means no felonies, no domestic violence misdemeanors, not a drug addict, not under the influence of or not in possession of any illicit drugs nor impaired by any drugs (legal or otherwise), never been adjudicated mentally incompetent. Some of these prohibitions are explicit in making you prohibited, others are not a lifetime ban, but effective in the moment. IE, don't carry while impaired by pain meds your doctor prescribes after surgery, but once you are not taking those, you are fine.
Also probably worth noting that since you are not of legal drinking age, Im pretty sure that ANY alcohol would qualify you as "under the influence", whereas for those 21 and over, the threshold for "under the influence" for carrying is the same as that for driving.
 
#4 ·
To add onto Charles' revolver being loaded discussion:

Loaded means: No round underneath the hammer and no round in the NEXT firing position because the cylinder rotates during trigger pull. If your revolver has the half-turn clicks where the resting position is between two chambers, you can get away with a single empty chamber.
 
#5 ·
Tons of good information, thanks! Couple questions though...

First, I am not allowed onto a bus or train (I.e., TRAX) when open carrying?

And second, I am not allowed to carry on a post secondary campus such as UVU?

Sent from Fiji via carrier pigeon
 
#9 ·
UtahJarhead said:
To add onto Charles' revolver being loaded discussion:

Loaded means: No round underneath the hammer and no round in the NEXT firing position because the cylinder rotates during trigger pull. If your revolver has the half-turn clicks where the resting position is between two chambers, you can get away with a single empty chamber.
If your revolver is single action, you only need to have the cylinder under the hammer empty. It will require cocking the firearm (to rotate the cylinder) and then pulling the trigger (two separate actions) actually discharge.

So if your single action revolver has the half-turn where the resting position is between two chambers, I believe you can legally get away with all chambers loaded. There is no round in firing position; and it takes two actions to fire a round.

On a double action revolver, the single act of pulling the trigger both rotates the cylinder and fires the next round up. So in addition to needing to keep the chamber under the hammer clear (per the "no round in firing position" rule), we also have to keep the next chamber up clear as a single action (pulling the trigger) would result in a round in that chamber.

Charles
 
#10 ·
UCChris said:
As far as the 1000' rule goes, is that from the edge of the property or from the actual structure?
From the edge of the property. And it is as the crow flies regardless of how long a distance it would take you to get to the school. Being on the other side of a freeway doesn't matter.

This was a killer when Utah law included the 1000' rule on all post-secondary and pre-schools. With a little digging, Brent Tenney over as USSC discovered that the parking lot of Doug's Shoot n Sports was within the 1000' range of a pre-school. And consider how many strip malls have a beauty salon that is actually a vocational school.

There are a few exceptions for the 1000' rule, including your residence or your business property, as well as inside your car. But under a strict reading, if you park on the street rather than in your driveway or garage and carry your gun between the house and the car, you have violated the federal GFSZ law for that brief moment you were on the public street with your gun.

A permit from the State in which the school is located exempts you from the federal GFSZ law if State law so allows; and Utah law does. But if you intend to carry a gun, sans permit, on your person, you will need a good map to determine exactly where you are legal. It isn't easy as we have a lot of children and thus a lot of schools in Utah. And 1000' from the edge of the property is a long distance.

Charles
 
#11 ·
Hmmm, the red tape necessary for me to legally carry a handgun is aggravating...

If I were to get a Maine permit (issued to 18yo if I understand correctly) would that allow me any more freedom, such as busses, colleges, or a salon? (Don't know why I'm at a salon anyway...)
 
#12 ·
UCChris said:
Hmmm, the red tape necessary for me to legally carry a handgun is aggravating...
Yup. Getting a permit greatly simplifies. But can you imagine having to get a permit to attend church, preach a sermon, write a book or read a newspaper, or have access to a lawyer if accused of a crime?

There is no good constitutional nor logical reason why the 2nd amendment should be treated as the red-headed step-child of the bill of rights. But that is where we are currently We are moving--however slowly--toward where we should be. With your desire to legally carry an effective self-defense, I hope you will get and stay involved politically to help with that movement.

UCChris said:
If I were to get a Maine permit (issued to 18yo if I understand correctly) would that allow me any more freedom, such as busses, colleges, or a salon? (Don't know why I'm at a salon anyway...)
Yes. Utah recognizes all out-of-State permits. So a Maine permit would allow you to carry fully loaded and/or concealed if you wanted. It would allow you to legally carry at colleges and other post-secondary schools. It would also allow you to carry at K-12 schools so far as State law is concerned. But it does not offer any protection against the federal GFSZ law for K-12 including the 1000' zone out from school property. The only way to be in full compliance with that one is to have a Utah permit which requires you to be 21 years of age. I know, rock and hard place. It kind of sucks.

But again, we are moving the right direction. I was about 25 years old before I had any practical chance to get a permit Utah would recognize. That was when the pioneers of Utah's RKBA movement got us non-discriminatory (ie shall issue) permits. Of course, on the other hand, there was no State nor federal GFSZ law when I was in high school, so we just left our guns in the cars in the parking lot, left our knives in our pockets unless we had some use for them, and nobody wet themselves over such things. :dunno:

Without the Utah permit it is very difficult to fully comply with the federal GFSZ law if you just want to carry routinely. OTOH, if you have certain parts of your schedule where you feel a special need for protection--such as working the graveyard shift, or coming out of college classes late at night, etc--it may be possible to arrange your schedule and travel routes to comply. And then the Maine permit allows you to conceal, and to carry in more locations than without the permit. As an 18 year old, the ability to legally conceal may have huge advantage in terms of reducing the OEO hassle factor. Unless you look very old for your age, you are more likely to be hassled over OC than would someone twice your age. Yes, we get old, fat, bald, and tired, but in return we get hassled less over things like having a gun or driving slightly over the posted limit. I'm not at all sure it is a fair trade, so enjoy youth even with the limitations. :D

If you do choose to get a Maine permit, know that there are those who would see that as you skirting Utah law and were there to ever be an issue, you could become the poster boy for why Utah shouldn't recognize out-of-State permits. Your carrying a gun legally with or without a permit has a very real potential to cause major political headaches for all of your fellow gun owners. Which is nothing compared to the potential to bankrupt you and put you in prison for life if you ever use the gun. Both of these risks apply to each of us. But the former risk applies to someone your age a bit more than to us older guys.

We have the rights to own and carry firearms for self defense. With the exercise of those rights, comes some grave responsibilities. Again, I urge you to take the Utah concealed carry permit course from an instructor who really takes the time to teach the law well. This group is great for helping with information. But with your butt, your freedom, your future on the line every time you pick up or carry a gun for potential self-defense, you really want to be fully informed for yourself, with copies of code in hand.

Best of luck.

Charles
 
#13 ·
UCChris said:
First, I am not allowed onto a bus or train (I.e., TRAX) when open carrying?
Without a valid permit to carry, possession on a train or bus is a felony with lifetime loss of RKBA.

With a valid permit to carry, you can choose whether to conceal or carry openly.

UCChris said:
And second, I am not allowed to carry on a post secondary campus such as UVU?
Correct. (It ain't right, but that is what the law says.) Without a valid permit to carry, State law bans possession of guns on the grounds or in the buildings of a post-secondary school including UVU.

Charles
 
#14 ·
bagpiper said:
IE, don't carry while impaired by pain meds your doctor prescribes after surgery, but once you are not taking those, you are fine.
I had a similar discussion about this with a gentleman that just retired from a fellow workplace. He had been struggling with chronic back pain and arthritis for many a years. He was prescribed pain killers to function at work, the discussion was mainly about driving and operating heavy machinery as instructed not to do on the label. He drove to work each day and operated equipment, I wouldn't look at him to be impaired as he functioned fine. Our discussion was mainly topic to DUI and how he could drive while on his meds. The difference between impaired and proper levels of the Rx in his system. (claims by his Dr.) however it got me thinking later to his right to carry. As you put it Charles he would not be eligible to carry, is this true? Or is it deeper like our discussion about impairment and proper dosage/levels/functionality? Just curious.
 
#15 ·
Charles, to be honest I didn't read every word you wrote so maybe you already addressed this... but the state of Utah no longer has a 1000' rule. Federal government does for K-12, but the state does not.
 
#16 ·
bagpiper said:
With your desire to legally carry an effective self-defense, I hope you will get and stay involved politically to help with that movement.
I'm planning on staying politically active. I'm currently deciding between law or politician as a career right now.

bagpiper said:
Yes. Utah recognizes all out-of-State permits. So a Maine permit would allow you to carry fully loaded and/or concealed if you wanted. It would allow you to legally carry at colleges and other post-secondary schools. It would also allow you to carry at K-12 schools so far as State law is concerned. But it does not offer any protection against the federal GFSZ law for K-12 including the 1000' zone out from school property. The only way to be in full compliance with that one is to have a Utah permit which requires you to be 21 years of age. I know, rock and hard place. It kind of sucks.
So, if I am understanding this correctly, the State would allow me in/around K-12, but Federal law would not. So, even with a Maine permit, K-12 is still a no-no for me? However, busses/trains and post secondary would be okay with a Maine permit. Also, I could OC with one in the chamber, correct?

bagpiper said:
OTOH, if you have certain parts of your schedule where you feel a special need for protection--such as working the graveyard shift, or coming out of college classes late at night, etc--it may be possible to arrange your schedule and travel routes to comply.
Well, not trying to argue or belittle your words but, in MY opinion, I'd want a gun not only where I feel I need protection but especially where I don't think I do. I think that I will be a lot less "on-guard", "condition yellow", or whatever you may say to describe situational awareness, in "safer" areas.

bagpiper said:
And then the Maine permit allows you to conceal, and to carry in more locations than without the permit. As an 18 year old, the ability to legally conceal may have huge advantage in terms of reducing the OEO hassle factor. Unless you look very old for your age, you are more likely to be hassled over OC than would someone twice your age. Yes, we get old, fat, bald, and tired, but in return we get hassled less over things like having a gun or driving slightly over the posted limit. I'm not at all sure it is a fair trade, so enjoy youth even with the limitations. :D
My standard work attire is cargo shorts with a tucked in polo, but that's only for one of my four current jobs. Concealing in that getup is difficult unless I want to look at pocket options, which I'm not a fan of. So OC is for me when in that attire. I can throw on a t-shirt and conceal (with a ME permit) when I need to though. I realize I might get hassled for OC, but I do look much older than 18. I have no doubt I can pass for 24-25.

bagpiper said:
If you do choose to get a Maine permit, know that there are those who would see that as you skirting Utah law and were there to ever be an issue, you could become the poster boy for why Utah shouldn't recognize out-of-State permits. Your carrying a gun legally with or without a permit has a very real potential to cause major political headaches for all of your fellow gun owners. Which is nothing compared to the potential to bankrupt you and put you in prison for life if you ever use the gun. Both of these risks apply to each of us. But the former risk applies to someone your age a bit more than to us older guys. We have the rights to own and carry firearms for self defense. With the exercise of those rights, comes some grave responsibilities.
I've thought about my decision to carry, especially OC, a lot. I don't know if anyone is ever truly ready for the ramifications, but I know that I'd rather have it when I need it than to need it and not have it. I've taken a serious look at my life and how I act and due to that I have taken considerable time and effort to become much more mature than the "standard" 18 year old that has recently graduated high school.

bagpiper said:
Again, I urge you to take the Utah concealed carry permit course from an instructor who really takes the time to teach the law well. This group is great for helping with information. But with your butt, your freedom, your future on the line every time you pick up or carry a gun for potential self-defense, you really want to be fully informed for yourself, with copies of code in hand.
A class sounds like a really good idea. Do you have any recommendations here in the valley that are not terribly expensive?
 
#17 ·
UtahJarhead said:
Charles, to be honest I didn't read every word you wrote so maybe you already addressed this... but the state of Utah no longer has a 1000' rule. Federal government does for K-12, but the state does not.
I did address that, but it appears I was in error. I thought we still had a 1000' rule if another crime was committed. But at least as far 76-10-505.5 is concerned, there is no 1000' rule at all. Sometimes I love being wrong. :dancing:

Or is the "1000' if another crime is committed" contained somewhere else in law?

Thanks

Charles
 
#18 ·
UCChris said:
So, if I am understanding this correctly, the State would allow me in/around K-12, but Federal law would not. So, even with a Maine permit, K-12 is still a no-no for me? However, busses/trains and post secondary would be okay with a Maine permit. Also, I could OC with one in the chamber, correct?
I believe that is correct.

UCChris said:
Well, not trying to argue or belittle your words but, in MY opinion, I'd want a gun not only where I feel I need protection but especially where I don't think I do. I think that I will be a lot less "on-guard", "condition yellow", or whatever you may say to describe situational awareness, in "safer" areas.
I understand completely. And in addition to always being prepared with your firearm, there is great value in having a routine that you can always count on.

My point is simply that if you can't legally carry everywhere you go because of the federal GFSZ law, you might still be able to carry when and where your risk is highest. Certainly crime can happen anywhere, any time. But you are at higher risk working the graveyard shift alone in a convenience store or walking across a parking lot leaving a class after dark than you are running into Home Depot at 11:00 am on a Saturday.

A can of pepper-spray/mace, or a taser, or some other defensive weapon not covered by the federal GFSZ law might provide a measure of increased safety in those locations where you can't legally carry your gun. (and isn't a bad idea to have even when carrying a gun also so you have a less-than-lethal option should you need it). A quick open safe for your car would allow you to legally keep the gun fairly close at hand without theft being too easy.

Remember that everything about personal defense is a set of compromises or cost-benefit tradeoffs. Most of us could reduce our risk of being crime victims by turning our homes into fortresses and never leaving. We could wear heavy, uncomfortable, and expensive body armor. We could hire bodyguards. These are generally considered impractical for most of us. If we had need to be out and about in a war zone, we might insist on a rifle or shotgun. These are considered excessive and too difficult to carry for most of us, most of the time. So we settle on a handgun and then comprise between so-called "knock down power", accuracy, and ease of carry, cost, and perhaps other considerations. So carrying something other than a firearm is not nearly so much an abandonment of effective self-defense as it is simply another spot on the continuum of possible compromises and trades. Of course, maintaining situational awareness and avoiding or leaving higher-risk situations before a crime occurs or simply presenting yourself as a "hard target" regardless of whether you are armed or not is something that can and should be done at all times. Indeed, the very act of weighing risks and deciding how to address them is a critical step in maintaining situational awareness.

It isn't right or just that the law arbitrarily forces you to make compromises with your safety you'd prefer not to make. But until it can be changed, the risks of being victimized by a criminal must be weighed against the risk of being victimized by the federal government if you were to choose to violate federal law.

UCChris said:
A class sounds like a really good idea. Do you have any recommendations here in the valley that are not terribly expensive?
We have a couple of instructors on this board whose prices are more than fair and I suspect a couple of them will pipe up. If not, start another thread specifically asking for instructors around your area.

Off list, I also recommend Clark Aposhian. He operates as Fair Warning Firearms Training and his contact info can be found at the link provided.

In any event, I recommend a smaller class where you can ask lots of questions. The larger classes at gun shows or sometimes held at gun stores are ok, and scheduling can be convenient. They check the box for getting a permit. But since your objective is a deep, personal knowledge, rather than just checking the box, I'd suggest attending a smaller class. Clark or any of the instructors on this list can help you with that.

Best of luck.

Charles
 
#19 ·
Thank you for the information Charles. I currently carry a can of pepper spray in a horizontal belt holster, right where my gun should be. :D

Thanks for the suggestion on a CCW class. However, Clark @ FWFT requires I be 21 at the time of registration (for the class)
 
#20 ·
UCChris said:
Thank you for the information Charles. I currently carry a can of pepper spray in a horizontal belt holster, right where my gun should be. :D
Glad to be of help. One last word of advice on this:

Change the location of your pepper spray immediately. And do not carry a gun until you get 100% used to the new pepper spray location. You never, ever, want to end up grabbing your gun when you intended to reach for pepper spray.

There was at least one case of a cop somewhere grabbing his gun when he intended to grab his taser. He put a bullet where he only intended to stun someone. I know a taser is a lot more like a gun than is a can of pepper spray. So the odds of the same mistake are lower. But no reason to risk it so I suggest finding a new location for the pepper spray and getting completely used to it before adding the firearm.

I wasn't aware Clark required you to be 21 to take the class. Good info to have. As I said, I know there are instructors on this list who will welcome an 18 year old to their classes.

Charles
 
#21 ·
bagpiper said:
Glad to be of help. One last word of advice on this:

Change the location of your pepper spray immediately. And do not carry a gun until you get 100% used to the new pepper spray location. You never, ever, want to end up grabbing your gun when you intended to reach for pepper spray.

There was at least one case of a cop somewhere grabbing his gun when he intended to grab his taser. He put a bullet where he only intended to stun someone. I know a taser is a lot more like a gun than is a can of pepper spray. So the odds of the same mistake are lower. But no reason to risk it so I suggest finding a new location for the pepper spray and getting completely used to it before adding the firearm.
You bring up a very good point! Pepper spray is moving to weak side. I don't think I'm going to carry multiple magazines so it can sit comfy over there.

bagpiper said:
I wasn't aware Clark required you to be 21 to take the class. Good info to have. As I said, I know there are instructors on this list who will welcome an 18 year old to their classes.
I will poke around for that list and figure out who to take it from. Thanks!
 
#22 ·
bagpiper said:
UtahJarhead said:
Charles, to be honest I didn't read every word you wrote so maybe you already addressed this... but the state of Utah no longer has a 1000' rule. Federal government does for K-12, but the state does not.
I did address that, but it appears I was in error. I thought we still had a 1000' rule if another crime was committed. But at least as far 76-10-505.5 is concerned, there is no 1000' rule at all. Sometimes I love being wrong. :dancing:

Or is the "1000' if another crime is committed" contained somewhere else in law?

Thanks

Charles
I THOUGHT it was stripped out entirely about 2-3 years ago.
 
#23 ·
UtahJarhead said:
To add onto Charles' revolver being loaded discussion:

Loaded means: No round underneath the hammer and no round in the NEXT firing position because the cylinder rotates during trigger pull. If your revolver has the half-turn clicks where the resting position is between two chambers, you can get away with a single empty chamber.
This depends on whether the revolver is single or double action. This description is for double action revolvers. A single action revolver only needs to have the chamber in line with the hammer/barrel empty. If you revolver has the half-turn resting position, all chambers can be loaded.

For example, my NAA mini revolver is a single action revolver with the resting position between two chambers. In the resting position between chambers there is no cartridge in the firing position and it requires two operations, cock, pull trigger, to fire. It is therefore Utah Unloaded as long as the hammer is resting between chambers.
 
#24 ·
Be careful with the definition of an 'unloaded' revolver. The law is poorly written and creates confusion. Because it fails to state whether the 'firing position' means with the hammer cocked or with the hammer down, it can be inferred that you can't have a live cartridge under the hammer, even though it is impossible to fire that cartridge, because when you cock the hammer, the NEXT cartridge rotates to the firing position. It's a quirk in the law no one wants to address, because it's easier to just get a permit and not worry about it.
 
#25 ·
The law is not poorly written. It's very very clear what is 'loaded' in Utah. The firing position is the chamber under the hammer. The NEXT firing position must also be empty. There's nothing inferred.

No round under the hammer, no round in the next firing position.
 
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