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OC in K-12

6K views 13 replies 8 participants last post by  JoeRandall 
#1 ·
I tried searching, but couldn't find anything so here goes.

If a person has a Utah CFP, can they OC in a K-12 school. I know they can CC, and since UT's CFP doesn't require concealment, I assume that OC is okay too. I just have never heard of a civilian OC'ing in a K-12 environment.

If it is indeed legal, post your experiences of OC'ing in a K-12 location. I would assume that people would be quicker to freak out due to school shootings, but I could be way off base.

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#5 ·
It is legal to OC in a Utah K-12 so long as you have a valid Utah permit.

Most school districts have adopted policies that require employees carrying guns to keep the guns out of sight. If push came to shove, these policies are in conflict with our State preemption. But if push came to shove, this is the one place that we might actually end up with a real fight over changing legal requirements, and once you open a door on legislation, it is way too easy for it to get way worse. And since prudence dictates that teachers and other employees who do carry really should be discrete--among other things, their discretion enhances the deterrent effect since anyone planning a mass shooting won't know who might be able to put up real resistance--nobody has challenged this aspect of the policies yet. My sincere hope is that nobody will until some other things are handled first.

And I really hope nobody decides a school is a good place to OC a long gun. Indeed, even if I had a 100% valid reason to take a long gun into a school (say a presentation on some historic item), I would deliberately carry it fully encased, removing it only for the specific event for which I was taking it.

Bear in mind that the permit to carry is not a valid reason to just hang out at a public school. But you are there for legit reasons, you are permitted to OC, CCC, or CC with your Utah permit

I will OC occasionally to my kids' schools. Often I will casually conceal carry since so much of the school year has winter weather where a jacket is comfortable. Never been an issue. Often not even noticed. But my wife and I frequently volunteer at the schools and are well known on sight by most in the schools.

Election day is one of two days a year that I OC very deliberately as a 1st amendment exercise. My usual voting location is in a school. Most years my gun is never noticed until I take the "I voted" sticker and put it onto the holster instead of onto my shirt/jacket. Once or twice, one of the poll workers will notice and say something and we'll have a nice conversation.

Bear in mind that my general appearance and demeanor is one that does not cause alarm. And when I OC, I am especially careful to comport myself with utmost courtesy.

Charles
 
#7 ·
UCChris said:
As usual, an excellent and detailed reply Charles. Thank you! I'm wondering because I work at an elementary school after hours and OC is easiest for me.
Sadly, this won't be an issue for you for a couple of years the Federal GFSZ law won't permit you to carry in Utah schools until you have a Utah permit, which you can't get until you are 21 years old.

As I noted, most school district employment policies require employees to keep the firearm concealed and they assert the right to fire or other discipline those who violate the policy.

While most all here believe that policy is in violation of State preemption, I believe a fight on that at this time would likely result in negative outcomes for RKBA. Maybe that situation will change over the next couple of years.

Charles
 
#8 ·
bagpiper said:
Sadly, this won't be an issue for you for a couple of years the Federal GFSZ law won't permit you to carry in Utah schools until you have a Utah permit, which you can't get until you are 21 years old.
It is indeed sad, but the info is still good. I have been offered the daytime management position there once I return from my LDS missionary service.

bagpiper said:
As I noted, most school district employment policies require employees to keep the firearm concealed and they assert the right to fire or other discipline those who violate the policy.

While most all here believe that policy is in violation of State preemption, I believe a fight on that at this time would likely result in negative outcomes for RKBA. Maybe that situation will change over the next couple of years.
I will check on my district's policies. I know they do indeed allow CFP holders to conceal their handguns while working as teachers. I do agree that a fight over the violation of State preemption is not called for just yet. But hopefully someday we can get there.
 
#10 ·
One point that Charles and the others somehow missed, is that cool properties are specifically exempted from the store it in your vehicle law: http://le.utah.gov/code/TITLE34/htm/34_45_010700.htm

So when you go to work at the school park off school property if you want to keep the firearm in your car.

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#11 ·
(b) Possession of a firearm on or about school premises is subject to the provisions of Section 76-10-505.5.

76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or short barreled shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) As used in this section, "on or about school premises" means:
(a) (i) in a public or private elementary or secondary school; or
(ii) on the grounds of any of those schools;
(b) (i) in a public or private institution of higher education; or
(ii) on the grounds of a public or private institution of higher education; and
(iii) (A) inside the building where a preschool or child care is being held, if the entire building is being used for the operation of the preschool or child care; or
(B) if only a portion of a building is being used to operate a preschool or child care, in that room or rooms where the preschool or child care operation is being held.
(2) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or short barreled shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in this section.
(3) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or short barreled shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(4) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property; or
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students.
(5) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

I'm confused on your point DaKnife?

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#13 ·
My point was that it was previously mentioned that he could store his firearm in his vehicle while at work and the employer cannot prevent this. I pointed out that such is not true at schools. UCA Title 34 Chapter 45 the "Protection of Activities in Private Vehicles law" also known as the AOL parking lot law. This law allows an individual to keep their firearm in their locked vehicle while at work, even if parking on the employer's privately owned parking lot.

But Section 107 of that chapter states:
(1) (a) School premises, as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1), are exempt from the provisions of this chapter.
(b) Possession of a firearm on or about school premises is subject to the provisions of Section 76-10-505.5.
As a Maine Permit does not stand up to the Fed GFSZ permssion by the state exemption, not having a Utah CFP he is not able to take advantage of the parking lot protection rule as he is still within the 1000 ft GFSZ, and does not have a Utah permit. Further the school districts, trying to find every way possible to limit firearms (despite the fact that they cannot legally do so,) will point to 34-45:107 (1) as proof that a school employee cannot store a weapon in their vehicle.

You are right that I did overstate this in my too brief post (also partly due to trying to find and post a link to the code while posting on my phone, I research better with a full computer and a keyboard). And I agree that while maybe not totally wrong for the most part I was. But realizing I may have overstepped (being a know it all I can't be wrong can I?) I dug in deeper and noticed something. The sections of code regarding the exemptions provided by a Utah or other permit, always list the titles and chapters and sections exempted as seen here:
76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
(1) Except for Sections 76-10-506, 76-10-508, and 76-10-508.1, this part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Firearm Act, do not apply to any of the following:
(a) a United States marshal;
(b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
(c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
(d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
(e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711; or
(f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise.

(2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
(a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
(b) by another state or county.

(3) Except for Sections 76-10-503, 76-10-506, 76-10-508, and 76-10-508.1, this part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Firearm Act, do not apply to a nonresident traveling in or though the state, provided that any firearm is:
(a) unloaded; and
(b) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
But note that while 76-10-505.5 refers back to those sections that list the exemptions, including the above cited 76-10-523, those sections do NOT refer to it. As seen in 523 they list 505 but not 505.5. One could assume that 505.5 is included in 505 but look at paragraph (3) of 523 above, it specifies 76-10-508 and 76-10-508.1. A Prosecutor could very well point this out, claiming that the fact that 505.5 is not cited means that in fact it is not subject to exemption by a CFP. I know it's unlikely since nobody has run afoul of this yet, but the question stands that if the code that defines the exemptions specifies sections 508 and 508.1 then why does it not specify 505.5 in addition to 505.5?

Consistency of format in reference is a very key point in reading the laws. A comma or period placement can greatly change the meaning, as can a difference with in the same section on how other sections are referenced.

Carrying at a school (one of the places where UU works) before getting a UT CFP is not a good idea. And while our local police are not likely to try to enforce the GFSZ unless you are caught breaking another law, you never know when your encounter would be with a OEO who then feeds your charges to a left leaning prosecutor who wants to make a name for himself. The Law is confusing because of the precision with which it must be written and read.

Tell me I'm off base and convince me that I'm wrong, but I see a small but dangerous flaw in the law as currently written.
 
#14 ·
I can see where your coming from now in your post. I'm sorry if my post came off as a rude questioning. It was not. Thanks for the clarification. I had also forgot that the op was underage and was thinking of a Maine permit. I was also on my phone :). From the original post that had started about a question on a Utah CFP. I need to look at posters names more when browsing.

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