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OC ARTICLE I FOUND INTERESTING

9K views 26 replies 12 participants last post by  UtahJarhead 
#1 ·
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...rry-activists-featured-in-those-viral-videos/

"Following announcements from Sonic and Chili's asking customers to leave their guns at home, some Blaze readers lashed out at open carry activists' tactics and wondered if they were doing more harm than good in the fight to advance Second Amendment rights."

Me thinks attitudes are a changin'

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#2 ·
Who was it who recently proffered the suggestion that OC events at private businesses would probably be a lot better if they were coordinated beforehand with the owner/manager. I will add, doubly so if done by a politically favored minority group.

"High, a group of of rape survivors and our supporters would like to hold a small get-together at your business. We choose to exercise our rights to an effective self defense by carrying firearms. Can you accommodate us at 7 pm this Wednesday evening?"

Let them say no to that group. Or to a pink pistol type of group.

In any event, I think holstered handguns are far more appropriate in most cases than a slung long gun. Though for a per-arranged event, I'd have to make an exception for biathletes carrying their rifles. :D

Charles
 
#3 ·
bagpiper said:
Who was it who recently proffered the suggestion that OC events at private businesses would probably be a lot better if they were coordinated beforehand with the owner/manager. I will add, doubly so if done by a politically favored minority group.

"High, a group of of rape survivors and our supporters would like to hold a small get-together at your business. We choose to exercise our rights to an effective self defense by carrying firearms. Can you accommodate us at 7 pm this Wednesday evening?"

Let them say no to that group. Or to a pink pistol type of group.

In any event, I think holstered handguns are far more appropriate in most cases than a slung long gun. Though for a per-arranged event, I'd have to make an exception for biathletes carrying their rifles. :D

Charles
As usual on situations like this we mostly agree. I think holstered handguns, OC, CC or CCC are an entirely different issue than long guns. While I'm certainly not intimidated by seeing a few rifles and or shotguns at an event, I can certainly see the other point of view as well. And getting more businesses to attempt to ban guns, is a more likely result than increasing acceptance.

And of course, biathletes meeting for lunch before or after an event might be excused for carrying their rifles. And I suppose in states that only allow open carry of rifles, they don't have much choice if they want to make a statement. But it's a slippery slope.

Mel
 
#4 ·
quychang said:
bagpiper said:
Who was it who recently proffered the suggestion that OC events at private businesses would probably be a lot better if they were coordinated beforehand with the owner/manager. I will add, doubly so if done by a politically favored minority group.

"High, a group of of rape survivors and our supporters would like to hold a small get-together at your business. We choose to exercise our rights to an effective self defense by carrying firearms. Can you accommodate us at 7 pm this Wednesday evening?"

Let them say no to that group. Or to a pink pistol type of group.

In any event, I think holstered handguns are far more appropriate in most cases than a slung long gun. Though for a per-arranged event, I'd have to make an exception for biathletes carrying their rifles. :D

Charles
As usual on situations like this we mostly agree. I think holstered handguns, OC, CC or CCC are an entirely different issue than long guns. While I'm certainly not intimidated by seeing a few rifles and or shotguns at an event, I can certainly see the other point of view as well. And getting more businesses to attempt to ban guns, is a more likely result than increasing acceptance.

And of course, biathletes meeting for lunch before or after an event might be excused for carrying their rifles. And I suppose in states that only allow open carry of rifles, they don't have much choice if they want to make a statement. But it's a slippery slope.

Mel
Not that I have a marvelous solution in this particular case, but these folks open carrying long guns were in Texas, where the only way to legally open carry handguns is to be a cop, as I understand it. Private citizens are legally barred from the open carry of handguns, with or without a permit. Obviously, checking with the establishment beforehand would go a long ways to mitigate the negative effects.

I keep wondering how it is that Texas is considered so "gun-friendly" when the ONLY way to carry handguns is concealed. Makes me appreciate the freedoms we enjoy here in Utah all the more.

Thank you, Charles, for your patient and persistent efforts in behalf of all of us.
 
#5 ·
LibertyNut said:
Not that I have a marvelous solution in this particular case, but these folks open carrying long guns were in Texas, where the only way to legally open carry handguns is to be a cop, as I understand it. Private citizens are legally barred from the open carry of handguns, with or without a permit. Obviously, checking with the establishment beforehand would go a long ways to mitigate the negative effects.

I keep wondering how it is that Texas is considered so "gun-friendly" when the ONLY way to carry handguns is concealed. Makes me appreciate the freedoms we enjoy here in Utah all the more.

Thank you, Charles, for your patient and persistent efforts in behalf of all of us.
Yeah, but these guys had their firearms at the low ready for pictures, in front of them and hands on the firearm as you would if you were readying to shoot. Big difference between slung across the back like our JCPenney rifle carrier and the TX Chipotle carriers.
 
#7 ·
LibertyNut said:
[

Not that I have a marvelous solution in this particular case, but these folks open carrying long guns were in Texas, where the only way to legally open carry handguns is to be a cop, as I understand it.
I wonder if blue training handguns in OC holsters might not be as effective a message of protest over lack of open carry while not carrying the risks of OCing long guns.

Or really, they need to change the makeup of their legislature.

Charles
 
#8 ·
bagpiper said:
LibertyNut said:
[

Not that I have a marvelous solution in this particular case, but these folks open carrying long guns were in Texas, where the only way to legally open carry handguns is to be a cop, as I understand it.
I wonder if blue training handguns in OC holsters might not be as effective a message of protest over lack of open carry while not carrying the risks of OCing long guns.

Or really, they need to change the makeup of their legislature.

Charles
Sometimes I think people in the gun world forget. It's entirely possible to protest or otherwise make ourselves heard, without OCing. If you are not allowed to OC your handgun, hopefully your NRA hat and your "guns don't kill people, I do" t-shirt will get the point across.

I like Charles' Idea about OCing blue guns. I just don't see how carrying an AR 15 is going to change people's minds about OC in a state where people are so offended by the sight of guns that they've banned OCing handguns entirely.

Baby steps. :cool:
 
#9 ·
Something I have never understood is 1) Why they chose to bring an otherwise benign and private company and place them front and center on the political stage of what is obviously a very controversial subject. Very rare if ever will it end in their favor.

2) Do they not understand that OC of long guns is not a guaranteed right and all it takes is a law to ban it. By descending on businesses like they do, they are more likely to tarnish the cause rather then promote it.

I guess I am just tired of seeing, what is in my opinion, a dangerous political action. Our own JCP incident has had long term negative affect in the state.

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#10 ·
Snaggle said:
2) Do they not understand that OC of long guns is not a guaranteed right and all it takes is a law to ban it.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Chicago, New York, D.C., and other places essentially ban the (concealed and open) carry of pistols. Would you say that's not a "guaranteed right" because a law can ban it? By that definition, nothing is a right.
 
#12 ·
As to when it begame illegal to OC handguns in TX, I've seen references to it being a Jim Crow era law from the early 1900's, not a recent restriction.

Now OCT has replied to the NRA stating that they have visited many Sonic stores prior to the one on the vid and the problem is that this one sub-group was so used to being welcomed at Sonic's with open arms and free drinks that they forgot to call ahead to his particular store before hand as is standard procedure for OCT.

The thing is they are usually welcomed, one sub-chapter got lazy in a couple instances and it's biting them, but mostly they are welcomed or asked in advance not to do so which requests they honor. They are mostly winning, so now we see an organized pushback and suddenly the 2A community is ripped into two snarling factions. Which is a major win for the anti-gun groups.

The NRA's statement is further proof of why I don't trust them to fight the good fight and not compromise away more rights.

The SAF has done more to expand our rights through a couple key court cases than has the NRA. The SAF got laws the NRA acquiesced to (to protect hunting) thtown out.

OCT has my full support, do you really support the 2A or are you a "BUTter"?

Tapatalking via my Galaxy S4
 
#13 ·
manithree said:
Snaggle said:
2) Do they not understand that OC of long guns is not a guaranteed right and all it takes is a law to ban it.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Chicago, New York, D.C., and other places essentially ban the (concealed and open) carry of pistols. Would you say that's not a "guaranteed right" because a law can ban it? By that definition, nothing is a right.
I should elaborate as my statement was slim on content. First let me say I am talking specifically about OCing of long guns. That is the topic of this thread.

My point was/is that the bill of rights provides the right to keep and bear arms. We are all familiar with that. Moreover, the Supreme Court has ruled time and time again that the government has the ability to enact laws that are prudent and reasonable. What is prudent and reasonable is a moving target but that's another discussion.

When it comes to OC of long guns into private businesses in the fashion discussed, serves no legitimate purpose. Therefore, it would not be a stretch for laws to be enacted to prevent this.

I made the argument many years ago when we had the open carry at the mall in Utah County (Orem maybe). The most recent JCP carry grabbed national attention and was a hot topic on the hill this year.

My question is when will someone push this issue of putting private business in the forefront of the 2A debate that law makers pass another restrictive law?

These OC events are doing far more harm then good, if any good exists at all.

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#14 ·
DaKnife said:
OCT has my full support, do you really support the 2A or are you a "BUTter"?
Logical fallacy of false dichotomy.

Nobody here has suggested that OCing long guns should be illegal. Nobody here has indicated they'd support any laws making such illegal. And so far as I know, nobody here has been any more public in their criticism or concern about OCing long guns than the discussion here.

"No enemies to the right" is a great mantra for public communications. I don't intend to throw any of my fellow gun owners under the bus. That includes not only those who OC in a different way than I do, but also those who use a gun in self-defense, as well as those whose guns, family, or selves are involved in some kind of accident or victimized by criminals. Having a gun not locked in a safe is not a reason to be thrown under the bus.

None of this precludes the prudence of giving some thought to how we present ourselves.

I support the 1st amendment as strongly as I do the 2nd. Will I get any argument that showing up to the legislature wearing a speedo and yelling about "F this and F that and you legislators are all blanking communist traitors" is not the most productive way to convince them to vote our way? Or will someone try to suggest that such an observation is tantamount to really supporting freedom of speech/expression?

If a larger group does, indeed, have a strategy that is winning for them, more power to them. I certainly won't claim to be an expert on the culture or politics of Texas (or any particular area in Texas, as it is a freaking big State). But your account does highlight how a single act, by a small group "that got lazy" can undermine those successful efforts or cause other problems.

Charles
 
#15 ·
bagpiper said:
DaKnife said:
OCT has my full support, do you really support the 2A or are you a "BUTter"?
Logical fallacy of false dichotomy.

Nobody here has suggested that OCing long guns should be illegal. Nobody here has indicated they'd support any laws making such illegal. And so far as I know, nobody here has been any more public in their criticism or concern about OCing long guns than the discussion here.

"No enemies to the right" is a great mantra for public communications. I don't intend to throw any of my fellow gun owners under the bus. That includes not only those who OC in a different way than I do, but also those who use a gun in self-defense, as well as those whose guns, family, or selves are involved in some kind of accident or victimized by criminals. Having a gun not locked in a safe is not a reason to be thrown under the bus.

None of this precludes the prudence of giving some thought to how we present ourselves.

I support the 1st amendment as strongly as I do the 2nd. Will I get any argument that showing up to the legislature wearing a speedo and yelling about "F this and F that and you legislators are all blanking communist traitors" is not the most productive way to convince them to vote our way? Or will someone try to suggest that such an observation is tantamount to really supporting freedom of speech/expression?

If a larger group does, indeed, have a strategy that is winning for them, more power to them. I certainly won't claim to be an expert on the culture or politics of Texas (or any particular area in Texas, as it is a freaking big State). But your account does highlight how a single act, by a small group "that got lazy" can undermine those successful efforts or cause other problems.

Charles
so... Speedos are like open carry... I guess, I can see that.
 
#16 ·
althor said:
so... Speedos are like open carry... I guess, I can see that.
Speedos and dropping the F bomb (or reciting scriptures, or saying prayers, etc) are both very much like Open Carrying long guns. All are (or should be) protected activities under the bill of rights.

All are quite appropriate, even expected in certain circumstances. All are quite inappropriate, off-putting, and offensive in certain other circumstances.

Anyone who doesn't see that, ought to look a little closer.

Charles
 
#17 ·
bagpiper said:
althor said:
so... Speedos are like open carry... I guess, I can see that.
Speedos and dropping the F bomb (or reciting scriptures, or saying prayers, etc) are both very much like Open Carrying long guns. All are (or should be) protected activities under the bill of rights.

All are quite appropriate, even expected in certain circumstances. All are quite inappropriate, off-putting, and offensive in certain other circumstances.

Anyone who doesn't see that, ought to look a little closer.

Charles
I'm just enjoying the humor. It magde me think of my past life on a swim team.

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#19 ·
bagpiper said:
althor said:
I'm just enjoying the humor. It magde me think of my past life on a swim team.
Well, in that case, maybe speedos are more like very casually concealed carry than actual open carry. :D

Charles
BANANA HAMMOCKS ARE RIGHT OUT!
 
#20 ·
Even I, at my weight wear a speedo to soak in the hot tub. It's not quite private enough for swimsuits optional, or I wouldn't even bother.

Think of a rubber band on an egg. And I'll leave you all gagging at that thought :ROFL:

Mel
 
#22 ·
I am all for OCT carrying their long guns is just want them to be a little more organized and a little smarter about how they do it so that they can be more of a positive influence. Lately they seem to be hurting more than helping. Time to fix that. I don't think any pro-gun group should just be condemning OCT. It is stupid to ostracize them as a group who feels the same as us about 2A issues. My guess is they are feeling pretty beat up and picked on by the gun community right now.

After watching one of the videos I wish they would take a little more effort in their appearance as well. A nice appearance and a calm demeanor go a long way to showing others that we are the good law abiding citizens we tell everyone we are.
 
#23 ·
D-FIN said:
After watching one of the videos I wish they would take a little more effort in their appearance as well. A nice appearance and a calm demeanor go a long way to showing others that we are the good law abiding citizens we tell everyone we are.
Careful there. I've spent years encouraging people to dress appropriately for legislative hearings and the like by suggesting that "urban camouflage" (ie business casual or better) is the proper thing to wear. Every time I mention that here, someone pops up to tell me how wonderful "diversity" is, nobody should impose his values on others, etc.

And the next time there is a rally, the cameras ignore the 200 guys in dockers and golf shirts, the reporter doesn't even talk to, much less put on air the 6 fellows he spoke to who were calm, rational, and articulate. Nope. We get a 30 second shot of ratty blue jeans and t-shirts with "...from my cold dead hands..." while someone whose tinfoil hat we can almost see talks about black helicopters, the UN, and heaven only knows what else.

Whatever one may think of diversity, the media will most often portray us in the worst possible light. And we just keep serving it up to them on a platter. It is a miracle we make any progress at all.

Charles
 
#24 ·
bagpiper said:
D-FIN said:
After watching one of the videos I wish they would take a little more effort in their appearance as well. A nice appearance and a calm demeanor go a long way to showing others that we are the good law abiding citizens we tell everyone we are.
Careful there. I've spent years encouraging people to dress appropriately for legislative hearings and the like by suggesting that "urban camouflage" (ie business casual or better) is the proper thing to wear. Every time I mention that here, someone pops up to tell me how wonderful "diversity" is, nobody should impose his values on others, etc.

And the next time there is a rally, the cameras ignore the 200 guys in dockers and golf shirts, the reporter doesn't even talk to, much less put on air the 6 fellows he spoke to who were calm, rational, and articulate. Nope. We get a 30 second shot of ratty blue jeans and t-shirts with "...from my cold dead hands..." while someone whose tinfoil hat we can almost see talks about black helicopters, the UN, and heaven only knows what else.

Whatever one may think of diversity, the media will most often portray us in the worst possible light. And we just keep serving it up to them on a platter. It is a miracle we make any progress at all.

Charles
That's too bad. The way I see it. You dress up for work. You dress up for church. You dress up for your woman. You dress up for a job interview. Why not dress up to impress those whose minds you would like to win over to your side?

If you want a lazy day at the range wear whatever grungy clothes you want.
 
#25 ·
#26 ·
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