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OC oops

14K views 24 replies 10 participants last post by  metalgimp 
#1 ·
Normally I CC. A few days ago, however, I found that after I had returned from Home Depot, I was fully OC'ing. See, I get in the car after work and put my gun in my holster (yes, I leave my holster on at work, because it shreds my belt). At times, my shirt gets in the way, and the result is a fully showing piece.

I got a few "looks," but I didn't think about it, because I kind of stick out anyway. It wasn't until I got home that I noticed it. My wife's only response was "oops" (I'm very blessed to have such a supporting mate).

So, count me "in" as someone who OC'ed in public, albeit Ignorantly.

BTW, I can't recall if I said this, but a few months ago, I ran into a cop in our neighborhood (different from the first). He's PG PD. I asked him what he thought about CC. He shrugged, but he said that OC really bugs him. Why? They (PG PD) get calls from a worried/concerned citizen, and they [hear the grumbling] have to go and check it out. His gripe is not at all the OC; it is often the attitude of the carrier: "It's my right!" Could we just be a little more courteous? When confronted, conceal it.

Now, if you don't have a CCL,... I don't know what you can do.

MetalGimp
 
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#2 ·
I can understand police being annoyed about having to respond to time-wasting calls, but I'm completely unimpressed by gripes about the attitude of the carrier. If what the carrier is doing is legal, it's legal. Period. Yes, it's nice to be polite to police officers, so you should politely explain to them that it's your right to OC -- and that's all the police officer has any right to expect. You don't have to conceal just because a cop asks you to any more than you have to allow him to search your car just because he asks.

Oh, and the solution to time-wasting calls is to educate the dispatcher to ask the right questions, to determine whether or not the person with the gun is behaving in a threatening manner before wasting officers' time.
 
#3 ·
divegeek said:
I can understand police being annoyed about having to respond to time-wasting calls, but I'm completely unimpressed by gripes about the attitude of the carrier. If what the carrier is doing is legal, it's legal. Period. Yes, it's nice to be polite to police officers, so you should politely explain to them that it's your right to OC -- and that's all the police officer has any right to expect. You don't have to conceal just because a cop asks you to any more than you have to allow him to search your car just because he asks.

Oh, and the solution to time-wasting calls is to educate the dispatcher to ask the right questions, to determine whether or not the person with the gun is behaving in a threatening manner before wasting officers' time.
It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond. If anything just for liability's sake. Imagine if a dispatcher deemed a man oc'ing to be nothing and them he turns out to be an active shooter. That'd be a crap storm for the pd and the dispatcher would be fired.
It's the sop for most agencies I know of.

And as to oc'ing being your right, yes it is (in utah anyways). Simply put, officers don't care. A rude person with a gun is a possible threat, regardless of whether or not he is legally carrying. A nice person with a gun does not appear to be a threat as much as an incredibly rude person would. In my mind it has nothing to do with legalities; it is all about safety.

However, if the officer does something wrong then by all means call him out on it. You do not have to conceal it. That rule doesn't exist.
 
#5 ·
metalgimp said:
When confronted, conceal it.
No. Not only no, but [HECK] no. If that's anybody's opinion of me OCing, they can eat a bag of Dinglewhoppers and go pound sand. My OCing a handgun in a holster is my right and it's not harming any cause, just their feelings.
 
#6 ·
gskip33 said:
It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond.
What statute or department policy requires that? My wife went to traffic school a few years ago, and they played (allegedly) actual 911 calls about recipes, snow shovelling, lawn care, and other things with no illegal or dangerous activity. Are you saying they are legally required to respond to all those, too?

If a PD has a policy that requires they roll on frivolous calls calls where there is no dangerous or illegal activity, or if they refuse to educate their officers or the citizens making those (potentially illegal) 911 calls, how is that my fault, or my problem? And why should I change my legal method of carry because they choose to create and encourage that situation?
 
#7 ·
manithree said:
gskip33 said:
It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond.
What statute or department policy requires that? My wife went to traffic school a few years ago, and they played (allegedly) actual 911 calls about recipes, snow shovelling, lawn care, and other things with no illegal or dangerous activity. Are you saying they are legally required to respond to all those, too?

If a PD has a policy that requires they roll on frivolous calls calls where there is no dangerous or illegal activity, or if they refuse to educate their officers or the citizens making those (potentially illegal) 911 calls, how is that my fault, or my problem? And why should I change my legal method of carry because they choose to create and encourage that situation?
It boils down to departments being afraid of potential lawsuits if someone reports a "man with a gun", but they dont go check it out for whatever reason, and then that "man with a gun" ends up shooting up a school or shopping mall. Im sure somewhere some lawyer decided its better to waste lots of time (and taxpayers money) checking out BS calls about nothing, than it is to potentially get sued for millions later by families of victims of the one time it turns out to not be nothing.

I usually CC, but I do occasionally OC, or loosely conceal. If someone comes up to me and says "your gun is showing" or something to that effect, my response is usually something along the lines of "yeah I know, but dont worry its very well trained. It hardly ever leaps out of the holster and starts shooting people on its own". If someone were really adamant about me (and my gun) not being welcome in their business, id leave, but not before saying something like "Ok I'll leave, but would you be asking someone to leave simply because they were black, or gay ? My carrying my gun is a constitutionally protected right and discriminating against me because of it is every bit as wrong as discriminating against someone for one of those other reasons."
 
#8 ·
manithree said:
gskip33 said:
It doesn't matter whether the gun is peacefully holstered or not. If a pd gets a call from a citizen about a man with a gun they have to respond.
What statute or department policy requires that? My wife went to traffic school a few years ago, and they played (allegedly) actual 911 calls about recipes, snow shovelling, lawn care, and other things with no illegal or dangerous activity. Are you saying they are legally required to respond to all those, too?

If a PD has a policy that requires they roll on frivolous calls calls where there is no dangerous or illegal activity, or if they refuse to educate their officers or the citizens making those (potentially illegal) 911 calls, how is that my fault, or my problem? And why should I change my legal method of carry because they choose to create and encourage that situation?
I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.
The only thing I tried to explain was officers talking to OCers. Yes it is legal. The officer doesn't care. He wants to know you are a good guy with a gun. That's all. If you are nice and it appears you are a good guy with a gun the officer will leave you alone (depending on the officer).
If you are a stubborn [Edited by mod. -Don] to the officer it'll be much more difficult to convince him you are a good guy with a gun. You might even be a threat if you start to get angry. That applies to anyone. If an officer talks to someone who flips out on the officer you can bet your cash the officer will be suspicious and bother him even more.

And there is nothing illegal about calling in something a citizen thinks is weird. Sometimes we don't respond but most of the time we send an officer to check it out. Even if it is stupid and the suspect isn't breaking the law. It may be a waste or resources but I can guarantee you that if the officer has something better to do than look for the "suspicious black guy" who is only suspicious because he is black, the officer will respond only when the high priority calls have been looked into.
 
#9 ·
UtahJarhead said:
metalgimp said:
When confronted, conceal it.
No. Not only no, but [HECK] no. If that's anybody's opinion of me OCing, they can eat a bag of Dinglewhoppers and go pound sand. My OCing a handgun in a holster is my right and it's not harming any cause, just their feelings.
I admit I erred on pontificating the point, but I stand by the gist of what I said: be courteous. Cops have had on the bad for too long: they always get the short end of the stick. Yes, I've had more than enough bully-cops to understandably mistrust the whole lot, but that's not in my nature. If I were to be confronted, I guess I would ask: "How can I alleviate your concerns?" Note that I didn't say anything about the public at large. We're preached all the time to be "tolerant" or to "coexist." I want to do what is right, and sometimes doing what's right may make others uncomfortable.

Of course, being in someone's face never sells anything.
 
#10 ·
UCChris said:
Which HD was it? I only OC right now and I haven't had any weird looks at the AF one. Even from my co-workers when I come in off the clock ( I work there)

Smart phone post; expect errors
1600N Orem.
The weird looks came from the customers not the employees. I guessed it might have been because it wasn't really standing out.
 
#11 ·
!!!Now, here's something.!!!

For the last 3-4 years, our family has rented booths at certain fairs. The purpose is to sell my fiction books (I'm an author) and stuff we make as a family. When I got there, I discretely asked the coordinator if it was alright to CC as a vendor. She had no problem.

While I was setting up the booth, naturally my firearm was exposed very frequently, but there was little I could do about it. No one noticed and/or cared. I'm liking that.

MetalGimp

PS. As it would happen, after I left home to go to bed (b/c of meds), my family stayed to finish and pack up. Someone tried to rob the till by confusing and frustrating my 12-year-old son. We're doing another show this weekend in Strawberry Days. Could anyone stick around to watch over my family? I'll need help Th, F, S nights.
 
#12 ·
gskip33 said:
I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.
True, that part of my response was more directed toward the OP.

PD's choose the policy that requires them to check every MWAG. I have never heard of a 911 or non-emergency dispatcher choosing to triage a MWAG call, or the PD choosing to follow up with the caller that their really was no reason to call. So the officer grumbles that OC bugs him and he wishes people wouldn't do it. Well, stop making it such a pain for yourself, don't blame it on me.
 
#15 ·
manithree said:
gskip33 said:
I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.
True, that part of my response was more directed toward the OP.

PD's choose the policy that requires them to check every MWAG. I have never heard of a 911 or non-emergency dispatcher choosing to triage a MWAG call, or the PD choosing to follow up with the caller that their really was no reason to call.
I have. Several times.

Here's one anecdotal post from sg_pilot, who says a dispatcher friend from Washington County was trained not to send the police if the MWAG wasn't being threatening.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11644&p=133617&hilit=#p133605

There have been many other examples we've heard of over the last few years where 911 dispatchers were being trained to handle OC correctly.
 
#16 ·
divegeek said:
manithree said:
gskip33 said:
I never said don't OC or stop it. I OC occasionally.
True, that part of my response was more directed toward the OP.

PD's choose the policy that requires them to check every MWAG. I have never heard of a 911 or non-emergency dispatcher choosing to triage a MWAG call, or the PD choosing to follow up with the caller that their really was no reason to call.
I have. Several times.

Here's one anecdotal post from sg_pilot, who says a dispatcher friend from Washington County was trained not to send the police if the MWAG wasn't being threatening.

http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewt ... t=#p133605

There have been many other examples we've heard of over the last few years where 911 dispatchers were being trained to handle OC correctly.
That surprises me. Honestly I'd say the only place I could see dispatch not sending an officer out was in an area where they just did not have a decent amount of officers like a really small town or out in the boondocks.
 
#17 ·
gskip33 said:
That surprises me. Honestly I'd say the only place I could see dispatch not sending an officer out was in an area where they just did not have a decent amount of officers like a really small town or out in the boondocks.
Anywhere OC is common must eventually get to that point, or else all of their officers would always be out on MWAG calls. And it's really not difficult for the dispatcher to ask the caller for more details. "Is the man holding the gun in his hands? Is he doing or saying anything threatening? He's shopping for groceries? Well, sir, it is legal for people to carry firearms in our state. If he begins doing anything to threaten or intimidate anyone, please call back. Have a nice day."

I'd love to live in a place where OC is so common that no one bats an eye. Many, if not most, areas of Utah are pretty close to that.
 
#18 ·
divegeek said:
gskip33 said:
That surprises me. Honestly I'd say the only place I could see dispatch not sending an officer out was in an area where they just did not have a decent amount of officers like a really small town or out in the boondocks.
Anywhere OC is common must eventually get to that point, or else all of their officers would always be out on MWAG calls. And it's really not difficult for the dispatcher to ask the caller for more details. "Is the man holding the gun in his hands? Is he doing or saying anything threatening? He's shopping for groceries? Well, sir, it is legal for people to carry firearms in our state. If he begins doing anything to threaten or intimidate anyone, please call back. Have a nice day."

I'd love to live in a place where OC is so common that no one bats an eye. Many, if not most, areas of Utah are pretty close to that.
Oh I totally agree it'd be easy to verify if they were just OC'ing. I'm talking about the standard operating procedures that officers must (and therefore dispatchers) have to follow. If someone calls in a man with a gun you determine what he is doing. If he is a threat, and then you send either one officer to check the area or lots of officers to deal with a "threat". The officers (most likely the Sargeant) would get to decide if they want back up or not because they are the ones responding on the call.

And as to your question where "OC is so common no one bats an eye" I'd be okay with that too. And in that city no one would call it in. If someone does call it in to the police it suggests that something may be off, even if the caller is familiar with OC. Does that make sense?
 
#19 ·
gskip33 said:
divegeek said:
gskip33 said:
That surprises me. Honestly I'd say the only place I could see dispatch not sending an officer out was in an area where they just did not have a decent amount of officers like a really small town or out in the boondocks.
Anywhere OC is common must eventually get to that point, or else all of their officers would always be out on MWAG calls. And it's really not difficult for the dispatcher to ask the caller for more details. "Is the man holding the gun in his hands? Is he doing or saying anything threatening? He's shopping for groceries? Well, sir, it is legal for people to carry firearms in our state. If he begins doing anything to threaten or intimidate anyone, please call back. Have a nice day."

I'd love to live in a place where OC is so common that no one bats an eye. Many, if not most, areas of Utah are pretty close to that.
Oh I totally agree it'd be easy to verify if they were just OC'ing. I'm talking about the standard operating procedures that officers must (and therefore dispatchers) have to follow. If someone calls in a man with a gun you determine what he is doing. If he is a threat, and then you send either one officer to check the area or lots of officers to deal with a "threat". The officers (most likely the Sargeant) would get to decide if they want back up or not because they are the ones responding on the call.

And as to your question where "OC is so common no one bats an eye" I'd be okay with that too. And in that city no one would call it in. If someone does call it in to the police it suggests that something may be off, even if the caller is familiar with OC. Does that make sense?
There is another point to recognize: visitors. I mentioned in another post about this guy named Don who is so "out there" about guns that he places everyone in Utah in the "let's go shoot them all and then ask questions later" category. The point is that we'll always have "concerned citizens" that don't give a hoot what the Constitution actually says _and_ means. To them, the Constitution is minimally an "inconvenience" and maximally "a wholly irrelevant, archane parchment which should be put away in some museum as a curiousity of a period when people were not as 'enlightened' as we are today." In all cases, law enforcement has do deal with these... "people."

Getting back to my original post, today, I was working in a church service project. I've said it before: I take CC very, very seriously, and one way is that I carry all the time. At times it is inconvenient, and such was the case this morning. The side arm kept poking out and full showing. I sensed that some noticed it curiously--no more than that. One person, a friend, told me that it reminded him that he ought to get a CC!! How's that?
 
#20 ·
divegeek said:
Oh, and the solution to time-wasting calls is to educate the dispatcher to ask the right questions, to determine whether or not the person with the gun is behaving in a threatening manner before wasting officers' time.
We can't always do that cause of some of the sheep freaking out and insisting an officer check them out... trust me dispatchers hate those calls on normal open carriers as much as the officers do... sometimes we have no choice but to write them up... at least in my office/ dept

in the past 7+ years i dont know how many calls on that i have not written up cause i just educated the caller and then hung up on them after answering a few of their ?'s the # would be a lot of them
 
#23 ·
oh sorry... i dispatch, so write up a call for teh officers to respond on is what i meant
 
#24 ·
The police have no obligation or liability for not responding to such a call. Warren V DC established that. And based on a much worse crime than hoplophobia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia If the police had no liability after getting multiple calls while an actual crime was in progress, what liability do they have for not responding to a call about a person exercising his/her rights with no actual criminal intent or activity demonstrated. Lacking evidence of actual criminal intent or actions, the dispatchers should be trained to educate the caller, and not dispatch.
 
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