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Open carry on UTA

11K views 29 replies 13 participants last post by  UtahJarhead 
#1 ·
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2034942-155/ ... weapons-on

Lawmaker wants to allow weapons on public transit

New state Rep. Norm Thurston, R-Provo, says if people can legally carry a gun or weapon on the street, they should be able to do that on public buses and trains, too.

"Did you know it's a crime if an otherwise law-abiding person carries a weapon onto a bus or UTA [Utah Transit Authority] train?" he said. "Why would that be a crime?"

So Thurston is working on legislation to change a portion of state law that deals with hijacking. He said a constituent pointed out a problem with part of it.

The law says, "A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third-degree felony."

It does exempt people with permits to carry concealed weapons, or people carrying them with the permission of the owner of the bus or train.

Thurston says the law, as written, could allow police to arrest innocent people carrying items they don't consider to be dangerous weapons.
it's funny on facebook people are flipping out about OMG GUNS!!!!!!!!!! runaway!!!! I dont usually see that but it is on the Tribs FB page
 
#4 ·
We can carry with our permit. UTA doesn't like OC and will ask you leave. I know a UTA employee who actually carries despite policy against it. I am pretty sure some of his supervisors know and it kinda of look the other way on purpose because it can be dangerous dealing with some people.
 
#5 ·
D-FIN said:
We can carry with our permit. UTA doesn't like OC and will ask you leave. I know a UTA employee who actually carries despite policy against it. I am pretty sure some of his supervisors know and it kinda of look the other way on purpose because it can be dangerous dealing with some people.
UTA shouldn't be bothering anybody OCing on trains anymore. UtahPatriot did a lot of work talking to the higher-ups there, and also the police, if I remember correctly.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#6 ·
Good because that always bugged me. I rarely OC and rarely ride UTA however so it would not affect me much. :). Generally if riding public transport you don't have any options to store your firearm anywhere else but on your person. Which makes a good argument for carry everywhere and required storage for anywhere the you can't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#8 ·
althor said:
Uinta Firearms said:
UTA relies on taxpayer money to operate. We should already be allowed to carry on the bus and trains. They get money from every municipality they operate in.
What does taxpayer money have to do with anything?
They receive public money, and are therefore subject to public law, just like the University of Utah. Utah's State Constitution very closely resembles the US Constitution when it comes to firearms. I can't recall the name of the court ruling against the University of Utah, but the ruling pretty much said that because the U received public money (taxpayer money from the state) to operate it cannot prohibit the lawful possession and carry of firearms.

"Cry, 'Havoc and let slip the dogs of war." - William Shakespeare
 
#9 ·
Uinta Firearms said:
althor said:
Uinta Firearms said:
UTA relies on taxpayer money to operate. We should already be allowed to carry on the bus and trains. They get money from every municipality they operate in.
What does taxpayer money have to do with anything?
They receive public money, and are therefore subject to public law, just like the University of Utah. Utah's State Constitution very closely resembles the US Constitution when it comes to firearms. I can't recall the name of the court ruling against the University of Utah, but the ruling pretty much said that because the U received public money (taxpayer money from the state) to operate it cannot prohibit the lawful possession and carry of firearms.

"Cry, 'Havoc and let slip the dogs of war." - William Shakespeare
It has nothing to do with receiving public money.
 
#10 ·
10-4. It is my understanding that a private business/entity can prohibit firearms possession on their property. But once that entity starts receiving public funding for the benefit of the public they must allow lawful firearms possession on their property. Once it becomes publicly funded the private ownership aspect goes away. You've told me that I'm wrong, but have said about a word about how, nor attempted to correct me. Please do so.

"Cry, 'Havoc and let slip the dogs of war." - William Shakespeare
 
#11 ·
Uinta Firearms said:
10-4. It is my understanding that a private business/entity can prohibit firearms possession on their property. But once that entity starts receiving public funding for the benefit of the public they must allow lawful firearms possession in their property. You've told me that I'm wrong, but have said about a word about how, nor attempted to correct me. Please do so.

"Cry, 'Havoc and let slip the dogs of war." - William Shakespeare
Several claims have been made that once an entity receives tax money, it becomes a public entity and therefore is subject to the restrictions of 76-10-500. Nobody has been able to show that this is the case. I guess I'd be trying to prove a negative. 76-10-500 prohibits a local authority or state entity from enacting or enforcing firearms ordinances.

If the UTA is a public entity then they are restricted from making these rules unless the legislature delegates that responsibility. If they are not a public entity, then 76-10-500 is not relevant, regardless of tax money... in my opinion.
 
#12 ·
althor said:
Uinta Firearms said:
10-4. It is my understanding that a private business/entity can prohibit firearms possession on their property. But once that entity starts receiving public funding for the benefit of the public they must allow lawful firearms possession in their property. You've told me that I'm wrong, but have said about a word about how, nor attempted to correct me. Please do so.

"Cry, 'Havoc and let slip the dogs of war." - William Shakespeare
Several claims have been made that once an entity receives tax money, it becomes a public entity and therefore is subject to the restrictions of 76-10-500. Nobody has been able to show that this is the case. I guess I'd be trying to prove a negative. 76-10-500 prohibits a local authority or state entity from enacting or enforcing firearms ordinances.

If the UTA is a public entity then they are restricted from making these rules unless the legislature delegates that responsibility. If they are not a public entity, then 76-10-500 is not relevant, regardless of tax money... in my opinion.
This is a start to dialogue. Thank you.

"Cry, 'Havoc and let slip the dogs of war." - William Shakespeare
 
#13 ·
#14 ·
Gentlemen,

You are correct that the State Legislature has prohibited any state, county, city, municipal, or town or agency of the same from resticting the carry / possession of arms UNLESS specifically authorized by the State Legislature. And the State Legislature HAS made it a felony for ANYONE without a permit or LEO's ect to carry a firearm or other dangerous weapon on any public bus or train.

The UTA folks have "interpreted" this to mandate that concealment is mandatory--- and are pushing hard to maintain that status quo. AND I know that Utah Patriot has made an good effort to get them to see the light as that law is written--- I am not convinced he has been 100% successful--- AS MUCH AS I WANTED HIM TO BE!
 
#16 ·
Shay.ca said:
So WITH a permit you can ride the uta trains or busses concealed?

I don't generally ride either but it's good to know. Always thought you could go anywhere except fed buildings, post office, court, less church buildings, secure area of mental hospital ect.
WITH a permit you can conceal or open carry on a UTA train or bus. WITHOUT a permit it is a felony to do so.

Here is the law:

http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapte ... 0118000101

.....snip.....

(4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
(b) The prohibition of Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to:
(i) individuals listed in Subsections 76-10-523(1)(a), (b), (c), (d), and (e);
(ii) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon; or
(iii) persons in possession of weapons or firearms with the consent of the owner of the bus or the owner's agent, or the lessee or bailee of the bus.
Sent from iSnurd
 
#17 ·
Snurd said:
Shay.ca said:
So WITH a permit you can ride the uta trains or busses concealed?

I don't generally ride either but it's good to know. Always thought you could go anywhere except fed buildings, post office, court, less church buildings, secure area of mental hospital ect.
WITH a permit you can conceal or open carry on a UTA train or bus. WITHOUT a permit it is a felony to do so.

Here is the law:

http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapte ... 0118000101

.....snip.....

(4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
(b) The prohibition of Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to:
(i) individuals listed in Subsections 76-10-523(1)(a), (b), (c), (d), and (e);
(ii) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon; or
(iii) persons in possession of weapons or firearms with the consent of the owner of the bus or the owner's agent, or the lessee or bailee of the bus.
Sent from iSnurd
That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying and the link.
 
#20 ·
Snurd said:
Shay.ca said:
So WITH a permit you can ride the uta trains or busses concealed?

I don't generally ride either but it's good to know. Always thought you could go anywhere except fed buildings, post office, court, less church buildings, secure area of mental hospital ect.
WITH a permit you can conceal or open carry on a UTA train or bus. WITHOUT a permit it is a felony to do so.

Here is the law:

http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapte ... 0118000101

.....snip.....

(4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
(b) The prohibition of Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to:
(i) individuals listed in Subsections 76-10-523(1)(a), (b), (c), (d), and (e);
(ii) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon; or
(iii) persons in possession of weapons or firearms with the consent of the owner of the bus or the owner's agent, or the lessee or bailee of the bus.
Sent from iSnurd
So In This Section:
(4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
Should mean that Open Carry is OK since it is not a concealed weapon even without a permit.
 
#21 ·
D-FIN said:
Snurd said:
Shay.ca said:
So WITH a permit you can ride the uta trains or busses concealed?

I don't generally ride either but it's good to know. Always thought you could go anywhere except fed buildings, post office, court, less church buildings, secure area of mental hospital ect.
WITH a permit you can conceal or open carry on a UTA train or bus. WITHOUT a permit it is a felony to do so.

Here is the law:

http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapte ... 0118000101

.....snip.....

(4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
(b) The prohibition of Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to:
(i) individuals listed in Subsections 76-10-523(1)(a), (b), (c), (d), and (e);
(ii) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon; or
(iii) persons in possession of weapons or firearms with the consent of the owner of the bus or the owner's agent, or the lessee or bailee of the bus.
Sent from iSnurd
So In This Section:
(4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
Should mean that Open Carry is OK since it is not a concealed weapon even without a permit.
I would have to look at Mitch's book to be sure, but I'm almost positive that if you don't have a permit, you can't have a gun there unless you want a felony on your record. I'm not see why it just says concealed, but if you don't have a permit, don't take your gun on UTA.

Sent from iSnurd
 
#23 ·
There are many places where these codes or Regulations are worded in that way or technically not correct or wording that is ambiguous. Like with the DWR wording when hunting with Bow or Muzzle loader.

From 2014 Big Game Handbook

'The firearm restrictions in this section do
not apply to concealed firearm permit holders,
provided the person is not utilizing the concealed
firearm
to hunt or take wildlife."
and
• Individuals who are licensed to carry a
concealed weapon (You may not use
your concealed firearm to hunt or take
protected wildlife.)
You would think that with as much as we pay lawyers to write these laws, they could do it in a more professional manner.
 
#26 ·
althor said:
So... what is wrong with those examples?
I choose to open carry my .45 while hunting...It is Not My Concealed Weapon...but is perfectly legal.

I believe it is also legal for a CFP holder to also carry an M1 Garand over one shoulder while archery or muzzle loading hunting...as long as you don't use it to take said Game...My M1 is not my Concealed weapon either.

The problem is that when these examples (such as how they are worded by DWR) It becomes, as even many with a CFP believe..."you must Conceal"
I wish they would drop The "C" from the permit nomenclature. because it is clouding the issue when it comes to the "Firearm Permit" issued in Utah.
 
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