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Open Carry by an On Duty Range Officer - Safe or Unsafe?

14K views 31 replies 16 participants last post by  UCChris 
#1 ·
I tend to be biased towards legal carry in any but prohibited situations and even then, I like to hear and present arguments for allowing legal carry in all instances.

Several ranges in the area have rules against the general public from openly carrying while participating on the public shooting range. Some even go so far as to restrict Range Officers from openly carrying while serving on the public range.

A recent incident has brought to light a number of arguments for and against such practice by an on duty RO on a range that restricts open carry by anyone on the public range. The obvious argument is that such carry is against the range rules. Other arguments have included the safety ramifications of openly carrying, the influence of patrons, especially those that are of the "monkey see - monkey do" crowd.

The solution is for the ROs that wish to open carry to present an argument for open carry by ROs while on duty, to the appropriate decision makers on the Boards or Executive Committees of the subject ranges.

I've seen similar practices at Lee Kay, Bountiful, Cache Valley and Wahsatch.

What would your arguments be, either for or against an on duty RO openly carrying on the public range?
 
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#3 ·
Many people only own, or at least shoot a limited number of guns. If it's your practice to open carry your 1911 where ever you go, and you're going shooting at a range, why in the world would you have to unholster, box your weapon and carry it in to the range that way, rather than just carry a bag with gear, ammunition, etc? And what makes it any safer to walk to your lane with a concealed weapon, unholster it and lay it on the bench, than doing so from an open carry holster? I've certainly done so with a concealed carry piece at both indoor ranges and at Wahsatch. Most of the time when I go shooting, it's with the intention of practicing with my carry gun. I think the whole question is somewhat absurd, to be honest. Not that YOU are being absurd by raising it Dave, but by the fact that it needs to be raised at all.

Mel
 
#5 ·
I am going to be brief here and maybe respond in more detail later. Typing on my phone in a hotel room. I personally think it should be allowed but I undrstand why as an RSO you could be concerned about someone with a firearm behind the line during a cease fire. In the holster it should be fine but you don't know them and if they will keep it there. As an RSO your job is everyone safety. I like to know about the incident?
 
#6 ·
I was wondering about this as I witnessed an RO OCing at WSA last week and was wondering how they could get away with it. I have seen guys show up to the WSA open carrying a handgun and getting told by the RO's that they had to unload it and put it on the bench even though they were not shooting it but if they have it covered then its ok to leave on there hip. While this makes no sense to me in general why are the rules not the same for RO's? One has to play by the rules if they are going to enforce the rules don't you think? Would have been kind of hypocritical if that RO went up to some open carrier to tell him he couldn't OC all the while OCing himself.
 
#8 ·
Paul said:
I can't think of any reason to not allow OC by RSO's or anyone else at the range. Why are some ranges against it?
It sounds like someone is just considering "OC" to be the same as "handling a firearm", and they are being a stickler about the "no one handling firearms while the range is cold" rule.

Basically, the RSO is assuming the worst case, which is that Joe open carrier is going to randomly pull the thing out of his holster and start handling it during a cease fire.

Personally, speaking as an RSO, I wouldnt have an issue with someone having a properly holstered weapon on their person, be it openly or concealed. The first time they started to fondle the thing during a cease fire though, wed have issues.
 
#9 ·
Hmmm. I'm a RSO also I just never volunteer anywhere. I see zero problem with a holstered weapon. Handle when you aren't supposed to though and that's another problem.
This sounds like the "make a rule to ATTEMPT to prevent stupid from being stupid rather than just address stupid when it comes up."
If people are too dumb to keep a holstered gun holstered during a cease fire then they should be booted off the range.
 
#10 ·
I've seen plenty of rules on drawing and shooting, a la speed drills... but restricting carry? That's asinine IMO. I've heard of it, but never seen it.
 
#11 ·
Personally, I don't have a problem with the responsible open carrying of a holstered firearm at the range. For consistency I don't draw any distinction between RO's and the general public. As long as a person open carrying is demonstrating safe, acceptable behavior as defined by the ranges' rules then in my mind it shouldn't present any additional safety concerns or risks.

The issue I have is more around any apparent double-standards or interpretation of range rules. An example I'll use is for a range I'm more familiar with where the RO handbook states:

Wearing of Side-arms on the Public Range
NO ONE, including range officers, may wear an exposed sidearm on the public range CONCEALED firearms are exempt; these firearms will remain concealed. Customers with open carry handguns will place their firearms on their bench. An RO may not ask to view a patron's concealed firearms permit. Side-arms may not be drawn and fired from the holster while on the public range.
That said, on several occasions I've seen RO's OC'ing on the public range and other RO's haven't said anything, or at least not that I've been witness to. I've also witnessed members of the public showing up with an openly holstered firearm and they've been correctly asked to conceal or bench it (usually the former) so as to comply with the established range rules.

So, either the rules for ranges using the same or similar verbiage as above should be changed to reflect what is considered "allowable" holstering of concealed and openly carried firearms for everyone to abide by or existing rules should be equally enforced for patrons and RO's.
 
#12 ·
jfwright1955 said:
Personally, I don't have a problem with the responsible open carrying of a holstered firearm at the range. For consistency I don't draw any distinction between RO's and the general public. As long as a person open carrying is demonstrating safe, acceptable behavior as defined by the ranges' rules then in my mind it shouldn't present any additional safety concerns or risks.

The issue I have is more around any apparent double-standards or interpretation of range rules. An example I'll use is for a range I'm more familiar with where the RO handbook states:

Wearing of Side-arms on the Public Range
NO ONE, including range officers, may wear an exposed sidearm on the public range CONCEALED firearms are exempt; these firearms will remain concealed. Customers with open carry handguns will place their firearms on their bench. An RO may not ask to view a patron's concealed firearms permit. Side-arms may not be drawn and fired from the holster while on the public range.
That said, on several occasions I've seen RO's OC'ing on the public range and other RO's haven't said anything, or at least not that I've been witness to. I've also witnessed members of the public showing up with an openly holstered firearm and they've been correctly asked to conceal or bench it (usually the former) so as to comply with the established range rules.

So, either the rules for ranges using the same or similar verbiage as above should be changed to reflect what is considered "allowable" holstering of concealed and openly carried firearms for everyone to abide by or existing rules should be equally enforced for patrons and RO's.
If that's the way the rule is written, I guess I don't have an issue with it. My intention upon arrival is going to be to bench the firearm in preparation for practicing with it. As long as at the end of the session, I'm allowed to return it to my holster to leave the range, I'm cool. I'd even be willing to walk back to my vehicle before unholstering and reloading, though that seems both counter productive, and one handling step less safe. The same holds true of my concealed carry gun. My intent will be to bench it, get out my extra mags, boxes of cartridges, etc. I do not have a problem with not handling the gun during cease fires. I don't feel any particular need to carry a holstered weapon while on the range and that includes concealed, but I can certainly see why an RO would prefer to do so. I also think it's a little ridiculous to have different rules for concealed vs. open carry of holstered guns. Like covering it up makes it any safer. I suppose if you have a problem with your gun jumping out of the holster randomly just to cause problems, then covering it might make sense. I honestly don't know anyone with that problem though.

Mel
 
#13 ·
Photocell said:
Just to be clear,are you asking our opinion on RO OC of a loaded firearm? I'm not real familiar with public ranges.
Yes, your opinion for or against the idea of having Range Officers OC while on duty on a public range.
 
#15 ·
jfwright1955 said:
Personally, I don't have a problem with the responsible open carrying of a holstered firearm at the range. For consistency I don't draw any distinction between RO's and the general public. As long as a person open carrying is demonstrating safe, acceptable behavior as defined by the ranges' rules then in my mind it shouldn't present any additional safety concerns or risks.

The issue I have is more around any apparent double-standards or interpretation of range rules. An example I'll use is for a range I'm more familiar with where the RO handbook states:

Wearing of Side-arms on the Public Range
NO ONE, including range officers, may wear an exposed sidearm on the public range CONCEALED firearms are exempt; these firearms will remain concealed. Customers with open carry handguns will place their firearms on their bench. An RO may not ask to view a patron's concealed firearms permit. Side-arms may not be drawn and fired from the holster while on the public range.
That said, on several occasions I've seen RO's OC'ing on the public range and other RO's haven't said anything, or at least not that I've been witness to. I've also witnessed members of the public showing up with an openly holstered firearm and they've been correctly asked to conceal or bench it (usually the former) so as to comply with the established range rules.

So, either the rules for ranges using the same or similar verbiage as above should be changed to reflect what is considered "allowable" holstering of concealed and openly carried firearms for everyone to abide by or existing rules should be equally enforced for patrons and RO's.
Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesnt like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.
 
#16 ·
gravedancer said:
Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesnt like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.
I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.
 
#17 ·
MichaelD said:
I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.
If that were the case, I'd think the rule would apply to all firearms and not exempt those that are concealed. I think that this is a rule in search of a problem.
 
#18 ·
MichaelD said:
gravedancer said:
Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesnt like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.
I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.
Then why say concealed weapons are fine ? What is the safety difference between a properly holstered firearm that is openly carried vs concealed, other than a thin layer of cloth ? The answer is none. If the concern is over draw from a holster, fine, have a rule saying no drawing from retention. But to go out of your way to say openly carried firearms are bad but concealed ones ok, that seems to indicate a bias towards open carry. I conceal about 90% of the time (though when Im RSOing is one of the few times I do generally OC), so this isnt just me being an OC fanatic. I just cant see the logic behind saying "OC is bad, but CC is fine" if the rule is just about safety.

That being said... the rules are out there for everyone to see, and if you dont like the rules, find a different range. If your beef is that the rules are only enforced on the shooters at the range and not the RSOs, well... not to be blunt but most people figure out after about the 3rd grade that the world isnt always what they consider to be fair. If an RSO tells the public to follow the rules, while not saying anything to another RSO that is breaking the same rule, it might be that the RSO isnt worried about his coworker accidentally shooting someone (like he would be about the general public). Or maybe its because he has no authority to make another RSO comply with the rule, while he does when it comes to the public. Or maybe he doesnt realize the rule applies to RSOs as well, or maybe he just doesnt give a crap. In any case, it all comes back to "if you dont like the rules, vote with your wallet". There are many ranges in the area that dont give a whip if you open carry or not, as long as you arent fondling the firearm at inappropriate times.
 
#20 ·
May I offer a slightly different perspective?

I personally think a holstered gun should be fine. That said, I can understand the idea that there should not be any guns behind the firing line.

So, the difference between open and concealed? Well, how often does someone say, "Concealed is concealed"? Perhaps the rule on concealed guns is simply a nod toward that and an allowance that those who keep their guns concealed are not actually in violation of the range rules.

Charles

EDIT to add:

I don't even have a problem if ROs are allowed to have an holstered gun while general range users are not. Presumably, the RO has long since demonstrated his safety and his strict adherence to safety rules. That cannot be said of everyone who may walk in to use the range. So one rule for range users and a slightly different rule for ROs causes me no heartburn. When I'm walking down range to change out a target, I want very high assurance that nobody is going to be lobbing bullets my way. A range, even more so than gun stores and gun shows, are places where gun are handled in ways that would generate an arrest or a self-defense shooting in most other situations. So some special rules are warranted.
 
#21 ·
Sam Fidler said:
If anyone thinks that a piece of cloth makes a gun any safer, Do they also think this makes you disappear?

P.S. Don't image google peek-a-boo at work. :shock:
Hey!!! Now where did Sam go??? Wait a minute!!! Where is everyone??? Why is it so dark in here???
:lolbang:
I really crack myself up sometimes!!!
 
#22 ·
Car Knocker said:
MichaelD said:
I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.
If that were the case, I'd think the rule would apply to all firearms and not exempt those that are concealed. I think that this is a rule in search of a problem.
:agree:
 
#23 ·
bagpiper said:
May I offer a slightly different perspective?
I personally think a holstered gun should be fine. That said, I can understand the idea that there should not be any guns behind the firing line.
So, the difference between open and concealed? Well, how often does someone say, "Concealed is concealed"? Perhaps the rule on concealed guns is simply a nod toward that and an allowance that those who keep their guns concealed are not actually in violation of the range rules.
Charles
EDIT to add:
I don't even have a problem if ROs are allowed to have an holstered gun while general range users are not. Presumably, the RO has long since demonstrated his safety and his strict adherence to safety rules. That cannot be said of everyone who may walk in to use the range. So one rule for range users and a slightly different rule for ROs causes me no heartburn. When I'm walking down range to change out a target, I want very high assurance that nobody is going to be lobbing bullets my way. A range, even more so than gun stores and gun shows, are places where gun are handled in ways that would generate an arrest or a self-defense shooting in most other situations. So some special rules are warranted.
:agree:
 
#24 ·
gravedancer said:
MichaelD said:
gravedancer said:
Sounds like that rule was written by someone who doesn't like OC, and they are taking the opportunity to try to discourage it.
I'm not sure what to make of it other than the rule-writer really wants firearms at the public range to be left on the bench when not in use; note the draw-from-a-holster clause. I don't think a dislike of open carry came into it.
Then why say concealed weapons are fine ? What is the safety difference between a properly holstered firearm that is openly carried vs concealed, other than a thin layer of cloth ? The answer is none. If the concern is over draw from a holster, fine, have a rule saying no drawing from retention. But to go out of your way to say openly carried firearms are bad but concealed ones ok, that seems to indicate a bias towards open carry. I conceal about 90% of the time (though when Im RSOing is one of the few times I do generally OC), so this isn't just me being an OC fanatic. I just cant see the logic behind saying "OC is bad, but CC is fine" if the rule is just about safety.
That being said... the rules are out there for everyone to see, and if you don't like the rules, find a different range. If your beef is that the rules are only enforced on the shooters at the range and not the RSOs, well... not to be blunt but most people figure out after about the 3rd grade that the world isn't always what they consider to be fair. If an RSO tells the public to follow the rules, while not saying anything to another RSO that is breaking the same rule, it might be that the RSO isn't worried about his coworker accidentally shooting someone (like he would be about the general public). Or maybe its because he has no authority to make another RSO comply with the rule, while he does when it comes to the public. Or maybe he doesn't realize the rule applies to RSOs as well, or maybe he just doesn't give a crap. In any case, it all comes back to "if you don't like the rules, vote with your wallet". There are many ranges in the area that don't give a whip if you open carry or not, as long as you aren't fondling the firearm at inappropriate times.
:agree:
 
#25 ·
I personally think that in a range situation, where everyone knows everyone has guns, and there's a pretty good chance that if you don't see one, you just aren't looking hard enough, that it's silly to have different rules for OC vs. CC. I honestly think that whether RO's can carry or not is pretty irrelevant. The real question is safety and frankly OC is no less safe than CC. A gun in a holster is no less or more safe because of a layer of cloth. In fact, a good share of OC holsters are retention, whereas most of the CC holsters I've dealt with are not. So you can make a case for the OC gun to actually be safer, if marginally.

But I also agree with the opinion that if you don't like the rules, vote with your wallet, and your feet. Shoot somewhere else. Let people in a position to act know about your decision if you like, but be polite about it. Personally, due to my mobility problem, I prefer to shoot at indoor ranges when I can. No traipsing out to set or retrieve targets, and no worries about being in front of the firing line. But that's just me. I do like the fact that the noise is somewhat lower out doors, and I do like the range and RO's at Lee Kay, if I lived closer, I suspect I'd shoot there on occasion. Wahsatch is close, and I may try to make a few trips up there this summer, and see how much it's changed. I didn't care for the clamp down from one year to the next, skipped last year altogether. If it's worse, I may just bag it. I do understand restrictions to keep people safe, but that doesn't make being treated like the lowest common denominator any more pleasant. Especially when there are other options ranging from BLM land to other ranges. Utah has more than enough choices for us all to be happy.

Mel
 
#26 ·
as a rso myself i do oc sometimes but most often cc i have gone to kaysville before but the last time i was there i was asked to cover i have not gone back, if john q public can not oc the rso should not !!!
 
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