Liberty Ammunition

This is an area to discuss reloading and other general ammunition topics. Neither UCC nor its staff assume any liability for any injury or equipment damage that may result from the use of any load data or methods that may be posted here. It is the responsibility of anyone using this information to verify that the information is accurate, safe and appropriate for the proposed usage.
Forum rules
NOTICE: Neither UCC nor its staff assume any liability for any injury or equipment damage that may result from the use of any load data or methods that may be posted here. It is the responsibility of anyone using this information to verify that the information is accurate, safe and appropriate for the proposed usage.

Liberty Ammunition

Postby D-FIN » Sun 23 Nov 2014 10:34 am

So this was featured in the recent USCCA info blast some of you may have seen it. I am curious as to others thoughts. I myself found the different approach to transferring kinetic energy very interesting. I kind of like the idea of a faster lighter round that works as well traditional round. Now I am no expert by any means but from what I can tell these seem to perform very well. Anyway I'll let those it wrested look for themselves. Be sure to check out the videos.

http://libertyammunition.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can't win the sheep over to your side if your always showing them your fangs.

NRA RSO
D-FIN
Sniper
 
Posts: 1534
Joined: Sat 29 Dec 2012 8:39 pm

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby Car Knocker » Sun 23 Nov 2014 10:45 am

Reminds me of zinc (I think) rounds sold for a short time maybe 30-40 years ago...very light...very fast...almost explosive expansion...little penetration. Perhaps these have different characteristics. :dunno:
Don

-->insert witty and/or inspirational message here<--
User avatar
Car Knocker
Posse
 
Posts: 4563
Joined: Sun 25 Jul 2004 3:41 pm
Location: Longmont, CO

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby Snurd » Sun 23 Nov 2014 11:11 am

I've been thinking about getting some and trying them out. I keep forgetting to do it though.


Sent from iSnurd
Snurd
Posse
 
Posts: 9776
Joined: Sat 19 Jan 2008 10:24 am
Location: SLC

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby jobot » Sun 23 Nov 2014 11:14 am

I bought some in 9mm but have not tested them yet.
User avatar
jobot
Marksman
 
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun 01 Aug 2010 10:34 am
Location: Logan, UT

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby quychang » Sun 23 Nov 2014 11:59 am

Doing quite a bit of poking around I finally found a site that identifies the civil defense ammo as "a monolithic copper, fragmenting hollow point." So, not as heavy or dense as lead, but should be harder and heavier than zinc.

The price isn't out of line with other defensive rounds, I believe I'll pick some up and give it a try. After the holidays most likely though.

Mel
The last thing I want to do is shoot anyone, but it's on the list...
User avatar
quychang
Sniper
 
Posts: 2839
Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Roy, UT

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby FrankenHollow » Sun 23 Nov 2014 2:58 pm

:bat:
Last edited by FrankenHollow on Thu 28 May 2015 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I need a new signature. This one sucks.
FrankenHollow
Sniper
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed 11 May 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Hotlips

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby quychang » Sun 23 Nov 2014 5:22 pm

FrankenHollow wrote:I believe we've discussed this before, haven't we?

I'm not a fan of solid copper, and especially frangible/segmented copper, for defense ammo.
Even so... The fact that they STILL haven't fixed the description of their .380 projectiles on their website gives me pause. If they can't correct the diameter from .380" to .355" on a webpage, I'm not going to trust my life to their ammunition. A disorganized mind leads to mistakes. A disorganized company leads to bad product.


Not being a reloader, I'll have to take your word for both issues. I probably missed any previous discussion of their ammo. And from a purchaser of ready to fire ammunition, not parts to re-manufacture ammunition, it's more important to me that the packaging and the website reflect what's stamped on the barrel of the gun I'm shooting, than that the bullets be correctly labeled to reflect actual size.

Oh, I'm not disputing your point. I used to be a machinist, doing precision grinding. We typically held tolerances of .0002-.0005 of an inch. telling me the size is off by .025 of an inch is enough to send shudders down my spine. But to be honest, I didn't know that .380 caliber bullets were .355 in diameter. I've never had the need for that knowledge, and so :dunno: .

Mel
The last thing I want to do is shoot anyone, but it's on the list...
User avatar
quychang
Sniper
 
Posts: 2839
Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Roy, UT

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby FrankenHollow » Sun 23 Nov 2014 10:26 pm

quychang wrote:
Oh, I'm not disputing your point. I used to be a machinist, doing precision grinding. We typically held tolerances of .0002-.0005 of an inch. telling me the size is off by .025 of an inch is enough to send shudders down my spine. But to be honest, I didn't know that .380 caliber bullets were .355 in diameter. I've never had the need for that knowledge, and so :dunno: .

Mel

Understandable.
But, for the record ( :wink: )... .380 Auto uses the same diameter projectiles as 9mm Luger - Nominally .355". Official SAAMI spec is 0.3565" (-0.003").

Most commercial bullets will measure 0.355"; and they're to be stuffed in a barrel with a .348" (+0.004") bore and .355" (+0.004") groove diameter. ...But MANY .380 barrels are on the large side.
Last edited by FrankenHollow on Thu 28 May 2015 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I need a new signature. This one sucks.
FrankenHollow
Sniper
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed 11 May 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Hotlips

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby quychang » Mon 24 Nov 2014 7:49 am

FrankenHollow wrote:
quychang wrote:
Oh, I'm not disputing your point. I used to be a machinist, doing precision grinding. We typically held tolerances of .0002-.0005 of an inch. telling me the size is off by .025 of an inch is enough to send shudders down my spine. But to be honest, I didn't know that .380 caliber bullets were .355 in diameter. I've never had the need for that knowledge, and so :dunno: .

Mel

Understandable.
But, for the record ( :wink: )... .380 Auto uses the same diameter projectiles as 9mm Luger - Nominally .355". Official SAAMI spec is 0.3565" (-0.003").

Most commercial bullets will measure 0.355"; and they're to be stuffed in a barrel with a .348" (+0.004") bore and .355" (+0.004") groove diameter. ...But MANY .380 barrels are on the large side -- I have one with a groove diameter of 0.3578" x 0.359" (oval :roll: ), with a bore that's 0.352". Most properly-sized bullets skip right across the lands and keyhole at 7 yards. I have to use (deep) hollow base bullets or bullets sized to .358"+ if I want anything resembling accuracy.


I'm sure I could google all of this, but since we're educating Mel, two things are obvious from what you've said. The first is a question, what is the actual chamber diameter on .380 or 9mm Luger? Obviously it's at min. .355 because chambering rounds doesn't scratch up the surface of an FMJ bullet. If the chamber were the same diameter as the barrel you'd have an interference fit that would cause extraction of an unfired round to be more difficult, and again I would expect to see some wear indications in the surface of the bullet.

Second, I'm assuming your .380 barrel was formed using a worn reaming tool or drill? It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, I would assume the barrels are shaped and sized in several steps, for a barrel to finish in an oval would require the tool be wandering in the barrel as if makes it's final pass. a .0012 variation is not a lot, but I would expect quality control to be tighter than that on a quality firearm. I know we did hand honing to finish some parts, and held tolerances of less than .0005 with roundness and straightness required to stay within the same tolerance ring over the length of the part. Some parts being 10" or longer. Actually holding those tolerances (with an added surface finish requirement as well) was a bit of an art form. Just as finish grinding on manual machines was 80% setup and tooling, it was 20% touch or feel that could only be learned with experience. I would assume that modern barrel manufacturing is mostly done on CNC machines and so the biggest factors would be in the machine setup and the tooling.

If cramming a slightly oversize bullet into the chamber improves accuracy, I would assume that the oval it's self is relatively straight and true over the length of the barrel? In other words it's big in more or less the same rotational spot on both ends of the barrel. Otherwise wouldn't you get a corkscrew effect when firing an oversize round causing a similiar accuracy issue as standard sized bullets?

Anyway, now you've got me thinking :lol3: . I've been giving thought to reloading, although, honestly I'm probably looking at 6-12 months down the road. I can see I have things to learn before tackling the project. Is it safe to assume that there's a range in the skill set/technical savvy of reloaders? Everything from people that just buy parts pieces and machines, cram bullets together and go shoot them, to people that measure everything to the nth degree and buy the equipment to measure bullet speed, etc.? I would expect that because I've known people that did reloading that most certainly didn't own a micrometer, or have a clue how to read one. Some had plastic dial calipers and assumed they would be accurate enough, etc.

Anyway, thanks for the quick lesson, would buying and reading a reloaders handbook be the best place to start, or are there reference materials that would do a better job of teaching me the theory before I worry about the hands on portion of the project?

Mel
The last thing I want to do is shoot anyone, but it's on the list...
User avatar
quychang
Sniper
 
Posts: 2839
Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Roy, UT

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby morcey2 » Mon 24 Nov 2014 10:29 am

quychang wrote:
FrankenHollow wrote:But, for the record ( :wink: )... .380 Auto uses the same diameter projectiles as 9mm Luger - Nominally .355". Official SAAMI spec is 0.3565" (-0.003").

Most commercial bullets will measure 0.355"; and they're to be stuffed in a barrel with a .348" (+0.004") bore and .355" (+0.004") groove diameter. ...But MANY .380 barrels are on the large side -- I have one with a groove diameter of 0.3578" x 0.359" (oval :roll: ), with a bore that's 0.352". Most properly-sized bullets skip right across the lands and keyhole at 7 yards. I have to use (deep) hollow base bullets or bullets sized to .358"+ if I want anything resembling accuracy.


I'm sure I could google all of this, but since we're educating Mel, two things are obvious from what you've said. The first is a question, what is the actual chamber diameter on .380 or 9mm Luger? Obviously it's at min. .355 because chambering rounds doesn't scratch up the surface of an FMJ bullet. If the chamber were the same diameter as the barrel you'd have an interference fit that would cause extraction of an unfired round to be more difficult, and again I would expect to see some wear indications in the surface of the bullet.

Second, I'm assuming your .380 barrel was formed using a worn reaming tool or drill? It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, I would assume the barrels are shaped and sized in several steps, for a barrel to finish in an oval would require the tool be wandering in the barrel as if makes it's final pass. a .0012 variation is not a lot, but I would expect quality control to be tighter than that on a quality firearm. I know we did hand honing to finish some parts, and held tolerances of less than .0005 with roundness and straightness required to stay within the same tolerance ring over the length of the part. Some parts being 10" or longer. Actually holding those tolerances (with an added surface finish requirement as well) was a bit of an art form. Just as finish grinding on manual machines was 80% setup and tooling, it was 20% touch or feel that could only be learned with experience. I would assume that modern barrel manufacturing is mostly done on CNC machines and so the biggest factors would be in the machine setup and the tooling.

If cramming a slightly oversize bullet into the chamber improves accuracy, I would assume that the oval it's self is relatively straight and true over the length of the barrel? In other words it's big in more or less the same rotational spot on both ends of the barrel. Otherwise wouldn't you get a corkscrew effect when firing an oversize round causing a similiar accuracy issue as standard sized bullets?

Anyway, now you've got me thinking :lol3: . I've been giving thought to reloading, although, honestly I'm probably looking at 6-12 months down the road. I can see I have things to learn before tackling the project. Is it safe to assume that there's a range in the skill set/technical savvy of reloaders? Everything from people that just buy parts pieces and machines, cram bullets together and go shoot them, to people that measure everything to the nth degree and buy the equipment to measure bullet speed, etc.? I would expect that because I've known people that did reloading that most certainly didn't own a micrometer, or have a clue how to read one. Some had plastic dial calipers and assumed they would be accurate enough, etc.

Anyway, thanks for the quick lesson, would buying and reading a reloaders handbook be the best place to start, or are there reference materials that would do a better job of teaching me the theory before I worry about the hands on portion of the project?

Mel


Do a search for 38 caliber heeled bullets. That's where the whole .355-.357" being called 38 caliber started. In the beginning, there were 38 caliber (see below for more confusion) cap-and-ball revolvers. The shot a more-or-less real .380" sized ball. Later, after metallic cartridges took over, replacement cylinders for the old cap-and-ball revolvers became available. In order for the bullet to be large enough for a snug fit in the barrel yet still fit in the cartridge, the heeled bullet was born.

Image

The one on the right is a heeled bullet. The inside diameter of the case was nominally 0.357". The outside diameter of the case was 0.380". One example is the 38 Rimfire conversion for the (ready for more confusion?) 36 caliber 1851 Colt Navy revolver. The bore diameter (top of the lands) was about 0.358"-ish. The groove diameter was just under 0.380". The 38 rimfire shot a 38 cailber heeled bullet with a 357 caliber shank. When Colt introduced the 38 Short Colt, it originally had a heeled bullet for the converting the same revolvers. Later, Colt dropped the bullet diameter to 0.359" for newer firearms with smaller internal barrel measurements, but the "38 caliber" name stuck. This continued through the 38 Long Colt, 38 S&W, 38 Special, etc. All rimmed revolver cartridges. Fast forward a little bit and enter the 9x19, a.k.a. 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, etc.... It had a 0.355-0.356" bullet, just a hair smaller than the "38 caliber" bullets of the time. A couple of years after the 9x19 is introduced, John Browning introduces a shorter round that uses the same diameter bullet, but is 2mm shorter case and has a slightly smaller case/rim diameter. That's the .380 ACP. (There's also a .38 ACP in there also, but it didn't do much other than spawn the .38 Super). The 380 ACP is also know as the 380 Auto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Browning Short/Curt/Kurz and a few other names. John Browning kept the 380 in the name to be consistent with the earlier 38-caliber stuff.

All of this silliness finally ended with the introduction of the 357 Magnum, and later, the 357 Sig.

And then there's the 38-40 Winchester which isn't even 38 caliber round in any sense. It was a derivative of the 44-40 with a 0.401" bullet. The "40" in the 38-40 name doesn't represent the diameter, but the 40 grain black powder charge it used.

Just to add to the confusion, there's a band called 38 Special and every single one of them is larger in diameter than 0.380" and they aren't even a gun! :dancing:

Anyway, there's a little hand-waving in there, but that's it in a nutshell.

(That's probably more than you ever wanted to know, but I have a day off and I'm waiting for someone to show up.... so I just kept typing)

Matt
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Certified Shotgun Instructor
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor.
NRA Certified Muzzleloading Rifle Instructor
NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
Purveyor of bad jokes.
morcey2
Expert Marksman
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Wed 30 Nov 2011 6:07 pm
Location: South Utah County

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby D-FIN » Mon 24 Nov 2014 11:54 am

To my understanding they are solid copper rods that have been turned and hollowed out on a lathe, They do fragment but are not segmented like those stupid RIP bullets. I think the force of impact was pretty telling in some of the ballistics gel videos. Especially the .223 demo. I also red that the company did test with all FBI standard barriers. I don't know what they are but things like car windows glass and wallboard and such.

To my layman's mind their science seems sound, after all the biggest difference between a regular 22LR and a .223 is speed at which the projectile is moving.
You can't win the sheep over to your side if your always showing them your fangs.

NRA RSO
D-FIN
Sniper
 
Posts: 1534
Joined: Sat 29 Dec 2012 8:39 pm

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby manithree » Mon 24 Nov 2014 12:15 pm

quychang wrote:Anyway, now you've got me thinking :lol3: . I've been giving thought to reloading, although, honestly I'm probably looking at 6-12 months down the road. I can see I have things to learn before tackling the project. Is it safe to assume that there's a range in the skill set/technical savvy of reloaders?


The answer to that is a definitive yes. And you forgot about casting. You may never find a more anal retentive detail-oriented group of people than those on the castboolits.gunloads.com forum. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Then there are reloaders like my nephew who reloads 9x19 while he's watching television with his friends, and doesn't really get that there are huge differences in smokeless powders.

quychang wrote:Anyway, thanks for the quick lesson, would buying and reading a reloaders handbook be the best place to start, or are there reference materials that would do a better job of teaching me the theory before I worry about the hands on portion of the project?


A lot of people like The ABC's of Reloading. I checked it out of the library and read it twice before I started buying reloading gear.

But back on topic, here's what Dr. Gary Roberts has to say about Liberty ammunition (first reply).
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11761-Liberty-USM-extremely-lightweight-fragmenting-ammunition-50-gr-9mm-60-gr-40&s=95902a23ec4fd59f8258c5230ee0f656

People who know better than I say that manufacturers have been coming and going with similar ideas for decades. But no police departments or militaries every buy it, and they never get a lot of sales. Those are some of the reasons I would rather spend my money on something else, but to each his own.
It's not about the odds, it's about the stakes.
http://gunfacts.info/
User avatar
manithree
Sniper
 
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu 30 Jul 2009 12:26 pm
Location: Orem, UT

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby FrankenHollow » Mon 24 Nov 2014 3:33 pm

:!: :?: :idea: :arrow:
Last edited by FrankenHollow on Thu 28 May 2015 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I need a new signature. This one sucks.
FrankenHollow
Sniper
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed 11 May 2011 3:47 pm
Location: Hotlips

Re: Liberty Ammunition

Postby quychang » Mon 24 Nov 2014 11:32 pm

Thanks for the information guys, it does make for interesting, at least to me, reading. I'll take a look at the ABC's of reloading. I tend to buy reference books in ebook format, so I'll price it. I'm sure somewhere I still have a Library card, but I haven't set foot in one for years. I have a bad habit of paying late fees. Sometimes to the point where I might as well have bought the ebook to start with. So many books, and so much information, so little time. I've been looking at my office arrangement and rethinking my fish tank situation. I may have a solution that would allow me to keep all but one smaller tank, and set up a reloading bench. Of course, I'll need to do some shopping and measuring before I can be sure.

And while I "doubt" I'll ever cast my own bullets, I can see me digging out my old Machinist tools and getting in to the technical aspects of reloading. I knew there was a reason I've kept them all these years.

At any rate, I appreciate your patience and time, all information is good, even when it just points me in the right direction for googling for more.

Mel
The last thing I want to do is shoot anyone, but it's on the list...
User avatar
quychang
Sniper
 
Posts: 2839
Joined: Fri 20 Apr 2012 9:34 pm
Location: Roy, UT


Return to The Ammo Bench

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron