I also know why I carry now.

Please post your real life stories where carrying for self-defense has made a difference.

Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby skipper » Sun 31 Jan 2010 8:57 pm

My friend Scott thats classic attitude of mexicans, they just dont like when a guy stare to their girlfriend.
is just a culture thing of machismo and respect.
"Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace." Juarez
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby hedonistic » Sat 20 Feb 2010 1:13 pm

Wow Scottie its been to long since we went shooting.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby SpringfieldGuy » Mon 22 Mar 2010 3:48 am

My understanding is that "threatening" them with " I will shoot" is considered just that....a threat and not legal. Use of a firearm in self defense must be made without threat or brandishing. I would have tried to not threatened them with i'll shoot all 3 of you. Just Get in the car and drive away. Understandable....this was a tense situation and sorry that you had to go through it. Glad that you were eventually safe from a potentially bad situation.

Any Comments for me on this?
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby divegeek » Mon 22 Mar 2010 5:56 am

SpringfieldGuy wrote:My understanding is that "threatening" them with " I will shoot" is considered just that....a threat and not legal. Use of a firearm in self defense must be made without threat or brandishing.

This is not correct.

A threat accompanied by a show of immediate force is considered assault, and aggravated assault if the force in question is deadly force. So threatening someone with a gun is probably aggravated assault (76-5-103), but it may be simple assault (76-5-102), depending on the details of the situation... UNLESS it's justified.

The justification required for the use of deadly force in defense of persons (76-2-402) is the same whether you merely threaten it or actually do it. Specifically, you have to have a reasonable fear that you or someone else will be seriously injured or killed, or be the victim of a forcible felony, and you have to have a reasonable belief that deadly force is necessary to prevent it.

In the situation that started this thread, it was three-on-one, and the "attackers" were making threats. In that situation, it's reasonable to fear serious injury even if the threats were vague ("We're gonna mess you up"), and a fear of death is even somewhat reasonable. That's sufficient justification for the use of deadly force, and scott.pete06 would have been legally justified in just shooting them at that point. He was also justified in using deadly force by just threatening, though, and that was the wiser course of action. Had he actually shot them, he would have been arrested, might have faced both criminal and civil trials, etc.

Prior to the passage of HB78, actually displaying the gun might also have been a misdemeanor under 76-10-506, but again fear of death or serious injury would have provided justification. When HB78 goes into effect, you will only have to have a reasonable belief that unlawful force (any, not just force that might cause serious injury or death) is going to be used against you to be justified in threatening with or showing your gun.

In my opinion, the only mistake Scott made was in failing to call 911 afterwards. If the three had decided to make the call, he might have been fighting assault charges, and really he should have pressed assault charges against them.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby capndoug » Tue 27 Apr 2010 9:42 am

840-4000 is a NON emergency number for Valley Emergency Communications Center. If you need a rapid response, call 911. Even if you're not sure if your situation is an emergency, you wont be doing anything illegal and you certainly wont be charged with a crime unless it happens over and over. (Takes forever to get someone charged with abusing 911)
Regardless of which number you call, your call goes to a call taker (same people answer both numbers) that will route it to the proper agency in the Salt Lake Valley. 911 lines have priority over 840-4000. VECC handles all agencies except Unfied Police (formerly Salt Lake County Sheriff), Grantie District PD and Salt Lake City police and fire.

As a former 911 worker I can tell you if you mention gun you may get a slower response depending on the agency. Most LEOs dont want to go running into a situation with a weapon involved until they have a back-up, and that may take time to happen. Just call 911 and explain why you're calling. It's a recorded conversation so there's going to be a record of your call.

In this situation I probably would've called. You never know what that punk might've had on him or what he had in his car. (Plus it'd be kinda comical to see how macho he looks to his girlfriend when he's sprawled across the hood of the cop car.)
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby Payton » Wed 28 Apr 2010 12:02 pm

Be careful what you ask for…

8 weeks ago, my daughter called 911 when her and her boyfriend where confronted by some maniac and his girl friend at a gas station in cottonwood heights.
My daughter and her boyfriend got out of there and called 911. She gave dispatch the license plate number and description of the woman.

To make a long story short… the LEO tracked down the vehicle. The woman told the LEO my daughter started the conflict. My daughter received a disturbing the peace ticket.

From my own, experience… I had seven witnesses and I call 911 when a man threatened me with a baseball bat in a parking lot.

The LEO gave me a ticket because the person with the bat said I hit him. I had to go to court. :dancing:
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby Kloutier » Tue 11 May 2010 5:00 pm

I hope you won that.
People say I should not carry because it's not the Wild West. I say I carry because its much worse. Only 3 people died at the at the O.K. Corral and its a part of our nations history. If 3 people died in a 30 sec shootout today It might not make the news.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby Payton » Wed 12 May 2010 12:00 pm

I had to take time off work. Nope I didn't win.
The DA dropped the charge when I got to the courthouse.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby divegeek » Wed 12 May 2010 4:36 pm

Payton wrote:I had to take time off work. Nope I didn't win.
The DA dropped the charge when I got to the courthouse.

That's a win.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby Payton » Wed 12 May 2010 5:17 pm

LOL. My last post was marked by a feeling of bitterness. I think the whole ordeal was a waste of tax payer money and I lost respect for the Sheriffs’ department. It is a shame after calling 911, the responding LEO questions the integrity of the person calling (and witnesses) because the perpetrator of a violent crime wants to lie and turn the tables to make himself look like the victim and almost hero like.

Some critical thinking was needed in my situation by the LEO and his supervisor.

The LEO called my cell phone after he located the perp. I hung up on the LEO 3 times, because he was threatening to come to my house and arrest me because I was not telling the same story as the perp. I called his Lieutenant.

The lieutenant said “What do you want me to do about it”. I told him it was harassment and tell the LEO to stop calling me or come and arrest me. The LEO laughed like it was a game.
My next thought was to load the rifles and pull a ruby ridge if the cop came to my door…lol just kidding. :bat:

I apologize for the long post and hi jacking the thread. :roll:
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby UtahJarhead » Wed 12 May 2010 6:08 pm

Payton wrote:The lieutenant said “What do you want me to do about it”. I told him it was harassment and tell the LEO to stop calling me or come and arrest me. The LEO laughed like it was a game.
My next thought was to load the rifles and pull a ruby ridge if the cop came to my door…lol just kidding. :bat:

To set the record straight, in Ruby Ridge the only people that loaded rifles and shot out of anything but self defense were the LEOs. The cop that was shot was shot in self defense, had not identified himself, and had just finished shooting their dog.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby Payton » Thu 13 May 2010 6:12 am

Roger that - actual!

My statement was a parity of the complexity of that situation. No offense meant. The similarity is in that the sheriff “in my opinion” was acting as a thug not an LEO in the literal sense.

Now I am more concerned with my families and my security when the Sheriff is around. I know what to expect from a gang banger and I don’t what I’ll get with an LEO.

I was followed down 6200 S by a LEO with kids in the car (student drive along?). A tall blonde sheriff with a crew cut was driving with a 15 or 16 year old girl in the passenger seat and two boys in the back. The LEO was tail gating me in a 35 MPH zone (5 or 6 feet behind me) we were the only two cars on the road. The LEO was smiling and laughing (in my opinion flirting) with the passenger. I slowed down to 25 or 30 MPH which seemed to annoy the LEO.

When I came out of the store the same cop had someone pulled over. I felt like I was also most victimized by this LEO who my have been trying to show off for the students.

Just my opinion.

I’m not a hate monger. Just stating my observations’. If I feel the need to respond to any more posts, I’ll start a new thread for my posts.
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Re: I also know why I carry now.

Postby hedonistic » Thu 13 May 2010 11:07 am

I am a fan of the break check and I do it to LEOs as well. You will not find a more distracted driver on the road how many of us drive while listening to one or, often two radios, using a cell phone and reading/typing on a laptop? Back in my patrol days I would tailgate just long enough to run a plate hazard of the job. I have yet to be rear ended in a break check and know that there will be a presumption that the officer is in the right but I hate tailgating.

It seems we are getting off topic. :swat:
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