DWR Rules and Right To Carry

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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby DaKnife » Mon 20 Jun 2011 4:21 pm

I wouldn't push too hard in that direction or the DWR will ask the legislature for exceptions to be added to the code. In my mind they do have a legitimate need and purpose for some limitations on the firearms people are carrying during the hunts. You don't need a hunting rifle to just go hiking, if it's hunting season what other purpose would you have for carrying one unless going hunting, in that case do you have a tag/license? If not what other conclusion can the DWR officer come to than that you are planning on taking game without a license or tag, in other words you are a poacher. We have enough problems with people poaching wildlife, we don't need to make it harder to prevent such crimes. And too hard a push against any restrictions on what can be carried during the hunting seasons will most likely result in the DWR being given legal authority to restrict firearm carry during the hunts and that would probably be issued as a blanket ban like there used to be.

Leave it at handgun carry. Even a bear can be dissuaded by a pistol, though you might want to carry something with more kick than a 9mm.

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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby manithree » Mon 20 Jun 2011 4:37 pm

DaKnife wrote:I wouldn't push too hard in that direction or the DWR will ask the legislature for exceptions to be added to the code.


Or at least wait and see the new regulations and guidebooks. Just because he said handguns in the e-mail doesn't mean they are really still trying to regulate long guns.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby UtahJarhead » Mon 20 Jun 2011 6:12 pm

Since when is it about need? If someone is guilty of a crime, then so be it, but as the laws currently state, there is no law against carrying in the field ANY type of firearm that doesn't violate preemption. Any attempt to enact or enforce laws that restrict it further than what is in currently in the legislature are strictly prohibited. NOBODY can make laws that go against it the Uniform Code.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby DaKnife » Mon 20 Jun 2011 6:19 pm

But did the Legislature consider DWR regulations when they passed the Uniform Code law? If not and we push this will they get the Legislature to push for amendments to the Uniform Code, or to codify Hunting specific laws. Either of which routes will most likely take us back to the very strict set of rules that used to be in place.

You are not factually wrong, but pushing this is, in my opinion, one of these areas more likely to backfire against us with results we don't want.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby UtahJarhead » Mon 20 Jun 2011 6:37 pm

I hardly think so. Look at what's already happened. He addressed every single issue without complaint. So maybe he missed one? We need to point out preemption to him and ensure he's compliant on every facet.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby divegeek » Tue 21 Jun 2011 11:18 am

DaKnife wrote:You don't need a hunting rifle to just go hiking, if it's hunting season what other purpose would you have for carrying one unless going hunting, in that case do you have a tag/license?

Maybe you're carrying it for self-defense. If you're worried about bears a rifle is the only realistic defensive arm. Maybe you're planning to do some target shooting. Maybe you just enjoy hiking with a rifle slung on your back.

I'm not too worried about our legislature enacting any kind of major reduction in our rights. I think the worst that might come out of the DWR lobbying for the legal right to restrict firearms is that the legislature will allow them to ban non-hunters from carrying the specific type of weapon used for hunting -- e.g. what appears to have been omitted from the corrections.

In other words, I don't see that bringing this issue up is likely to make anything worse, and there's a good chance it will make things better.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby Nocked N Loaded » Wed 22 Jun 2011 10:18 am

Thank you Manithree, and a big thanks to Mr. Fowlks. The 2011 Big Game Field Regulations book does not include the unlawful restrictions that were included in years past. :thumbsup:
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby manithree » Wed 06 Jul 2011 1:37 pm

I just looked over the draft of the 2011-12 upland/turkey guidebook, and the "no firearms" restriction for adults accompanying youth on youth hunts does appear to be gone. I did see this, though:

The firearm restrictions in this section do not
apply to concealed firearm permit holders carrying a
concealed weapon in accordance with Utah Code
§ 76-10-504, provided the person is not utilizing the
concealed firearm to hunt or take wildlife.


And I replied to Mr. Fowlks that concealment is not required and changing that to say "permit holders carrying a weapon" would be more in line with the law according to 53-5-704.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby TMair » Mon 29 Aug 2011 8:13 pm

I know this is not a gun violation but it goes to show how they try to cite you for whatever they think they can get away with, a few years ago I was out hunting ducks, when I got back to the truck there were the COs, in checking they asked were the empties where, I had a few but in my haste had neglected to pick up empties, my bad and I know it, I reload so that is not normal for me, anyway he sited me for littering, the entire hunt I was on private land, I argued with him, and fought him on the thing the whole time, let him know I was going to fight it, Can't remember why he had to follow me home but he did, had lights out on his truck, and failed to use his turn signals, I hassled him about that too, the next day I went hunting in the same area, and yes I did pick up the empties that I had dropped the day before, like I said I reload, and it was not like me to just drop hulls, came back and there was the CO, told me to tear up the ticket from the day before, had some excuse, but my guess is he checked on where his athority ended, so it never hurts to let them know you are not happy, and that you WILL fight their ticket if you know it is wrong.

But kudos to the cheif for making the changes in the proclimations now if he can change some attitudes.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby UtahJarhead » Tue 30 Aug 2011 5:13 am

TMair wrote:I know this is not a gun violation but it goes to show how they try to cite you for whatever they think they can get away with, a few years ago I was out hunting ducks, when I got back to the truck there were the COs, in checking they asked were the empties where, I had a few but in my haste had neglected to pick up empties, my bad and I know it, I reload so that is not normal for me, anyway he sited me for littering, the entire hunt I was on private land, I argued with him, and fought him on the thing the whole time, let him know I was going to fight it, Can't remember why he had to follow me home but he did, had lights out on his truck, and failed to use his turn signals, I hassled him about that too, the next day I went hunting in the same area, and yes I did pick up the empties that I had dropped the day before, like I said I reload, and it was not like me to just drop hulls, came back and there was the CO, told me to tear up the ticket from the day before, had some excuse, but my guess is he checked on where his athority ended, so it never hurts to let them know you are not happy, and that you WILL fight their ticket if you know it is wrong.

But kudos to the cheif for making the changes in the proclimations now if he can change some attitudes.
Terry

Next time, you gave your empties to a buddy that reloads.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby FrankenHollow » Tue 30 Aug 2011 1:03 pm

DaKnife wrote:I wouldn't push too hard in that direction or the DWR will ask the legislature for exceptions to be added to the code. In my mind they do have a legitimate need and purpose for some limitations on the firearms people are carrying during the hunts. You don't need a hunting rifle to just go hiking, if it's hunting season what other purpose would you have for carrying one unless going hunting, in that case do you have a tag/license? If not what other conclusion can the DWR officer come to than that you are planning on taking game without a license or tag, in other words you are a poacher. We have enough problems with people poaching wildlife, we don't need to make it harder to prevent such crimes.


Have you ever been shot at, after stumbling upon a poacher? Ever heard gun shots during the archery hunt, then come across the dirt bags loading the deer/elk into their vehicle? Ever wandered out of the woods, to find a piece of crap hunter trying to shove a gut-shot Doe in a hole, when you know the Doe season ended 3 days ago (and they most likely have a Buck tag, any way)?
Poachers do not like being discovered.
That is one very good good reason to be carrying a rifle.
If it's even remotely close to any big game season, I have a scoped rifle on me. Carry handgun vs Poacher's scoped rifle; is not a balanced equation.
I've been shot at 3 times, in the last 15 years, in Utah, by poachers. Once, I had to return fire, in the Chicken Crick area above Strawberry Reservoir.

My family has had 3 family acquaintances get caught poaching in the last 10 years. One paid a $2,000 fine, and lost his hunting privileges for 2 years; even with 3 illegally-taken deer hanging in his garage. The others paid minor fines, lost their rifles, and were hunting the next year. What incentive is there to NOT poach?

...But that's all in the past.
I got sick, and tired of Utah's ridiculous mis-management of wildlife, and complete lack of motivation to prosecute for poaching. I took my money elsewhere. I won't hunt in Utah, until they start punishing poachers properly, and start managing wildlife with a balanced approach. (Pushing 99% of the deer out of a prime area, just to build Elk herds, for greater revenue, is not balanced).

Wyoming gets most of my money, now. They do not take poaching lightly, and do a better job of managing wildlife with the 'big picture' in mind; not just $$ signs. The last time I ran across a poacher there? ...1991.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby ichigo » Wed 07 Sep 2011 11:25 am

From the 2011-2012 Water Fowl guide book
The firearm restrictions in this section do not
apply to concealed firearm permit holders carrying
a concealed weapon in accordance with Utah Code
§ 76-10-504.


How does Utah Code 76-10-504 Item 5 relate to the divisions restrictions? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the guide book references Utah Code
§ 76-10-504 as an authority. If Im in accordance with 76-10-504 item 5 then I'm allowed to conceal a firearm without a concealed permit...as long as I'm engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23. Does this sound right? :huh:
I have a concealed permit, but I found it interesting. Maybe someone could elaborate and educate me if I've misunderstood?

76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
(2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
(4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
(5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
(a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
(b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.
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Re: DWR comes around again

Postby manithree » Thu 03 Oct 2013 7:14 am

Last weekend I took a group of 11 year-old scouts to the Johnston's Army Adventure at the Camp Floyd State Park. This is done entirely by the DWR (AFAICT), and you actually camp on state park land. After we had registered, the confirmation e-mail listed as one of the rules:
No personal firearms or edged weapons are allowed in camp.

I replied to that email:
Isn't the rule below illegal according to Utah State Code 76-10-500 and 53-5a-102?

And after a couple of weeks, the rule now reads:
Weapons will only be allowed during the camp that are carried, and maintained according to state law.

I'm not sure whether to be happy that the DWR is so responsive, or annoyed that they have to be. But the person I corresponded with this time (Megan Keller, curator of the park museum) was very polite and cooperative.
The rule didn't get changed until after our trip, but I carried anyway.
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Re: DWR comes around again

Postby UtahJarhead » Thu 03 Oct 2013 7:29 am

manithree wrote:I'm not sure whether to be happy that the DWR is so responsive, or annoyed that they have to be. But the person I corresponded with this time (Megan Keller, curator of the park museum) was very polite and cooperative.
The rule didn't get changed until after our trip, but I carried anyway.

Mission accomplished! And don't feel bad for carrying despite the signs.
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Re: DWR Rules and Right To Carry

Postby manithree » Thu 03 Oct 2013 8:03 am

manithree wrote:
Thank you for your email and your concerns. I have been working on rule and language changes for the divisions proclamations that deal with conflicts with Title 53 and Title 76 firearms laws. Let me start off by saying that you certainly have the right to carry a firearm for your protection as you accompany your son or daughter on the turkey hunt. I can only recommend that you not choose a shotgun for protection as that may get the suspicion level of an officer up as to what your intentions are.
The language in the Turkey Guidebook is in an informational box and not in the main rule so its force of law is even more suspect. We are going to change it and unfortunately it slipped through the cracks for this year. Please feel free to use this email as proof that you conversed with me and clarified your rights if necessary. I will notify my officers and tell them not to enforce that specific language until we have a chance to fix this.
Take care and good hunting,

Mike Fowlks
Chief of Law Enforcement
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources


So it seems at least someone at DWR is aware of the actual laws and is doing something about it. At least for the youth turkey hunt. +1 for Chief Fowlks :thumbsup:


And while we're on the subject, we didn't hunt turkey last year so I never followed up on this, but I can't find any restriction at all on the adult accompanying a youth hunter in the 2013-14 upland/turkey guide. So this appears to be fixed and in accordance with Utah law now.
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