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2017 HB198 Carry Permit for 18 to 21

10K views 22 replies 9 participants last post by  DaKnife 
#1 ·
Rep Karianne LIsonbee and Sen. Todd Weiler have sponsored HB198, Concealed Carry Amendments, which we will know as "Concealed Carry Permits for 18 to 21 year olds." The bill's text and status can be quickly access at http://le.utah.gov/~2017/bills/static/HB0198.html .

This bill makes a permit to carry a concealed (and/or loaded) firearm available to those aged 18 to 21 on a nearly identical basis as is available to persons 21 years and older. In order to avoid risking loss of recognition of our current carry permit, the permit for 18 to 21 year olds is a different permit, known as a provisional permit to carry a concealed firearm. West Virginia did this last year and had zero effect on recognition of their regular permit. They actually ended up getting several States to recognize their provisional permit.

Other States will be free to recognize or not recognize our provisional permit entirely independently of whether they choose to recognize our regular permit. The provisional permit expires on the holder's 21st birthday when he is eligible for a regular permit. (There may need to be a little cleanup here later to make sure nobody with a provisional permit is left without the ability to legally carry while their regular permit is issued.)

The one difference between the Provisional and regular permit is that those with a Provisional permit cannot legally carry onto the grounds of nor into buildings of any K-12 school. This is obviously intended to avoid 18 year old high school seniors from carrying a gun to high school. There is no 1000' exclusion rule. I do not know yet how this will interplay with the federal GFSZ law.

Charles
 
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#3 ·
By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!
 
#4 ·
JoeSparky said:
By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!
How would your tack hammer approach affect recognition of Utah's permit in other states? That seems to be one of the major reasons for having separate permits for the age groups. I agree that it seems funky, but it also seems to be the way to get it passed easier without as much opposition. Then maybe when that has been in place a few years, and the political climate is milder, people will be more open to a blanket age reduction for the general permit?
 
#5 ·
JoeSparky said:
By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!
As I posted, the reason for having a separate permit is to avoid affecting recognition of the existing Utah permit. Near as I can tell there are 30 States that recognize a Maine resident permit, compared to 36 that recognize a Utah resident permit.

And for now, I think we do have to deal with concerns about 18 year old high school seniors carrying guns into class if they can get a permit to carry.

The proposed, Provisional Permit to Carry addresses both of those concerns in a very clean fashion, having zero affect on the existing Utah permit.

Charles
 
#6 ·
I'm all for this. Having a son who is 20, he'd love to carry and has taken his concealed course, but must wait until the 21st birthday.

Plenty of responsible 18-20 year olds in the world who I'd trust to carry every day. Then again, there are plenty that I wouldn't want touching a firearm for their stupidity as well.
 
#7 ·
After watching some 18-21 years olds at the range, and certainly at Front Sight, the one's I've seen have demonstrated more common sense than some of the older counterparts. I recognize that's not going to be true in all cases, and isn't just limited to someone in that age group either. However, there does tend to be plenty of examples of some 18-21 year olds who just don't seem to have a lick of common sense and I'd imagine that may also hold true of being entrusted with a firearm. But, again, the same can be said of older carriers.

So, I'm torn. I guess in a roundabout way, though, I'm saying I'm supportive of provisional carry permits for 18-21 year olds with some underlying reservations, if that makes sense.
 
#8 ·
Luv10mm said:
JoeSparky said:
By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!
How would your tack hammer approach affect recognition of Utah's permit in other states? That seems to be one of the major reasons for having separate permits for the age groups. I agree that it seems funky, but it also seems to be the way to get it passed easier without as much opposition. Then maybe when that has been in place a few years, and the political climate is milder, people will be more open to a blanket age reduction for the general permit?
Couple of thoughts:

Call me suspicious, maybe even tin foil hat wearer, but it seems it could be a stepping stone using the under 21 permit bill language to modify the general permit in future to prohibit school carry for everyone!

Why have any renewal language in a bill for a one time issue "special" age restricted bill anyway?
 
#9 ·
JoeSparky said:
Luv10mm said:
JoeSparky said:
By my read it is sledge hammer approach where tack hammer would be best.

Maine doesn't seem to have too many problems with that states willingness to permit residents and non-residents who are qualified and 18 years or older.

My suggestion is simple to eliminate the under 21 and expand the age requirement to 18 years of age or older. No need for a special $25.00 or so "special permit" with no expiration except for >20 years old but there is renewal language in the proposed legislation..... really making me scratch my head!
How would your tack hammer approach affect recognition of Utah's permit in other states? That seems to be one of the major reasons for having separate permits for the age groups. I agree that it seems funky, but it also seems to be the way to get it passed easier without as much opposition. Then maybe when that has been in place a few years, and the political climate is milder, people will be more open to a blanket age reduction for the general permit?
Couple of thoughts:

Call me suspicious, maybe even tin foil hat wearer, but it seems it could be a stepping stone using the under 21 permit bill language to modify the general permit in future to prohibit school carry for everyone!

Why have any renewal language in a bill for a one time issue "special" age restricted bill anyway?
Maybe its intended that the "provisional" permit can be renewed (and presumably converted to a normal permit) as the user approaches 21. That would close the apparent oversight of having them be without a permit for a couple of months during the transition.
 
#10 ·
Only language I see regarding "renewing" either exempt spouse of serviceman or serviceperson themselves or the fee to renew.... No language provided for conversion from "provisional" to regular. IF this was the intended desire--- then the bill needs to be cleaned up, appropriate text added, and superfluous language removed. Seems like too much extra that is not needed in present form.

Per this line:
(1) (a) The bureau shall issue a provisional permit to carry a concealed firearm for
40 lawful self-defense to an applicant who is 18 years of age, but is no older than 20 years of age,....
It seems anyone OVER 20 (age 20+ 1 day or more ) but under 21 cannot be issued a provisional permit yet later in the bill the provisional permit expires on the 21st birthday of the holder..

Bagpiper, you sound as if you've had special knowledge and discussion with those proposing/submitting this bill.
 
#11 ·
JoeSparky said:
Only language I see regarding "renewing" either exempt spouse of serviceman or serviceperson themselves or the fee to renew.... No language provided for conversion from "provisional" to regular. IF this was the intended desire--- then the bill needs to be cleaned up, appropriate text added, and superfluous language removed. Seems like too much extra that is not needed in present form.

Per this line:
(1) (a) The bureau shall issue a provisional permit to carry a concealed firearm for
40 lawful self-defense to an applicant who is 18 years of age, but is no older than 20 years of age,....
It seems anyone OVER 20 (age 20+ 1 day or more ) but under 21 cannot be issued a provisional permit yet later in the bill the provisional permit expires on the 21st birthday of the holder..

Bagpiper, you sound as if you've had special knowledge and discussion with those proposing/submitting this bill.
Theres no legal distinction between 20 years old and x days, and 20 years. Legally speaking, you are either 20 years old, or 21. Until you reach 21, you arent considered over 20.
 
#12 ·
JoeSparky said:
Couple of thoughts:

Call me suspicious, maybe even tin foil hat wearer, but it seems it could be a stepping stone using the under 21 permit bill language to modify the general permit in future to prohibit school carry for everyone!

Why have any renewal language in a bill for a one time issue "special" age restricted bill anyway?
Always good to be cautious.

The intent of the Provisional Permit is to be able to treat 18-21 year olds differently than those over 21 without ever touching the part of the code dealing with the regular permits. Ideally, in my mind, the limitation on carrying into K-12 schools would only apply to those who have not yet graduated from high school. But I think it not entirely unreasonable to apply this limitation to everyone younger than 21. Such a limitation will make passage easier to obtain. With the separate, Provisional Permit for those younger than 21, any changes made in the future can be made without any need to touch the language dealing with regular permits. This is a safety mechanism, in addition to providing some protection against losing recognition of our regular permit that might be at risk if we just dropped the minimum age to 18.

I do not see any renewal language in the bill. I do see a provision for a replacement permit. On what lines of the bill do you read renewal language?

I have had discussions with both the bill sponsor and the temporary NRA rep for Utah this year. He is from West Virginia where they passed a very similar bill recently. They also got permit-free (constitutional) carry via a veto over-ride, this last year.

The intent here is good. We do always have to watch for unwanted gotchas in the drafting process.

Thanks for keeping a close eye on it.

Charles
 
#13 ·
No renewal language as such just a fee for renewal on line 98. Had me scratching my head.

You don't need to know what kind of device or tool was used to send this
 
#14 ·
Question for Bagpiper and bill writers / sponsors. Could a conversion to normal permit be added by setting up an application and fee to be paid 3 months prior to turning 21 so a more seamless process for those with provisional to regular permits plans?
They already have the training and background checks done for the provisional permit. And then the current "renewal fee" on the proposed bill would make sense.

You don't need to know what kind of device or tool was used to send this
 
#16 ·
JoeSparky said:
Question for Bagpiper and bill writers / sponsors. Could a conversion to normal permit be added by setting up an application and fee to be paid 3 months prior to turning 21 so a more seamless process for those with provisional to regular permits plans?
They already have the training and background checks done for the provisional permit. And then the current "renewal fee" on the proposed bill would make sense.
I need to visit with the sponsor about intent and desired effect about transitioning from the provisional to the regular permit. Ideally we avoid a lapse.

Charles
 
#18 ·
This bill has cleared the House on a 63-12-0 vote and is now in the Senate.

In committee, Wheatley, M. was the only opposing vote.

In the full House the following Representatives voted against the bill:

Arent, P.
Briscoe, J.
Chavez-Houck, R.
Hemingway, L.
Hollins, S.
King, Brian S.
Kwan, K.
Moss, C.
Poulson, M.
Romero, A.
Weight, E.
Wheatley, M.

Charles
 
#19 ·
I looked around the nation for reciprocity and there have been instances where states lost reciprocity because they had also lowered the age from 21 to 18. Washington just dropped Tennessee for that reason even though majority of 18 year olds still can't carry in TN. Seven other states also won't recognize those 18-20 year olds either but still anyone 21 or over would be good to go. I would bet anything that the same thing would happen to our permit as well. For states that don't honor our permit I just don't go there plain and simple, but it's definitely good to have many options. It is nice to have reciprocity with other states no doubt and I am all for lowering the age to 18 as I believe it is the right thing to do, I just also want some thoughts on that.
 
#20 ·
Infrared Sight said:
I looked around the nation for reciprocity and there have been instances where states lost reciprocity because they had also lowered the age from 21 to 18. Washington just dropped Tennessee for that reason even though majority of 18 year olds still can't carry in TN. Seven other states also won't recognize those 18-20 year olds either but still anyone 21 or over would be good to go. I would bet anything that the same thing would happen to our permit as well. For states that don't honor our permit I just don't go there plain and simple, but it's definitely good to have many options. It is nice to have reciprocity with other states no doubt and I am all for lowering the age to 18 as I believe it is the right thing to do, I just also want some thoughts on that.
That's specifically why this bill isn't altering our existing permit to lower the age. Instead, its creating a special, "provisional" permit for those in that age bracket. It would be a separate permit from the regular Utah one, so states could choose to honor it (or not) without any impact on those with the "normal" permit.
 
#21 ·
gravedancer said:
That's specifically why this bill isn't altering our existing permit to lower the age. Instead, its creating a special, "provisional" permit for those in that age bracket. It would be a separate permit from the regular Utah one, so states could choose to honor it (or not) without any impact on those with the "normal" permit.
Don't really know how I missed that while reading it. Guess I was really tired or something. That is really cool that they are going to leave our current permit alone for 21 and older. I really hope this passes as a couple of my coworkers would probably get one as they are below 21. Thanks for the clarification. :D :D
 
#22 ·
Easy to miss since the media is trying to obfuscate or skim over that fact. Example: yesterday Doug Wright was pushing that it would impact reciprocity, even after Clark Aposhian tried to correct him he wouldn't let it go and ultimately declared that he was opposed to the bill simply because he couldn't see a need for either this or the Constitutional carry bill.

The opposition (most of whom don't care for any carry) are suddenly so concerned about reciprocity and high school students carrying to school despite the fact that this well written bill addresses both of those concerns by taking them out of play.
 
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