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Bane, I thought your responses were fine. And I certainly know the frustration of gathering input about ballistics. I guess if there really was one perfect cartridge then the world would be kinda boring :wink:

I also have thought a lot about the capacity vs. stopping power dilemma. My own feelings are that the .357 magnum and .40 S&W are the best cartridges available for self defense, provided you can shoot them effectively. And I really like the concealability and feel of my S&W model 60 (5-shot .357). However, sometimes I feel undergunned with only 5 shots at my disposal. I'll probably end up with a .40 of some kind in the near future for times when I want more firepower.
 

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One of these days I will be able to afford to equip myself like Neo in the first matrix movie… sigh
 

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I apoplogize, but it wasn't until now that I realized I didn't post the entire article in my first post. I hope it all still makes sense.

While on the subject of Calibers

In variably one of the things asked by a prospective gunman, right after he decides which type of pistol to buy and carry, is what caliber should he get. In fact, you would be hard pressed to pick up any gun-related magazine and not see at least one article relating to ammunition and caliber choices.

Some instructors are also very caliber-focused, thinking that anyone who does not bring a 45 to class is unarmed. One student of mine who carries a 9mm was recently told that his 9mm was simply a 45 set on "stun". (The commentator however, declined to be stunned.). So what should you do when trying to decide on calibers/loads, etc.? In a previous article we discussed the attribute of magazine capacity. Here we will discuss the characteristics of each caliber and give you some information so you can make up your own mind.

Issue Number One - Shootability.

I had a student come to class with a Glock 29 in 10mm. My philosophy is that students should bring whatever they want to carry, and that was his choice. The only problem was this gent weighed about 125 pounds, and was arthritic in both wrists. To make matters worse, he'd bought 500 rounds of the heaviest most powerful T-Rex stopping loads he could find in the caliber. To make a long story short, he ended up shooting the rest of the class with my Glock 17. That caliber/weapon combination may have made a fine choice for a larger and stronger man, but for him it was totally unusable.

The caliber choice must be first predicated on the reality of your physical condition. Can you shoot the thing? Can you train with it? If you wince in pain every time you fire that Dino-killer in training, you will never be able to use it well in a fight. Be honest with your self. Let your intellect and not your ego select your caliber.

Issue Number Two - Delivery Envelope.

Some students in my classes live and work in certain social circles where the pistol must not only be concealed, it must be covert. This means that weapon selection is as important as anything else. For them, an HK USP may be a fine weapon, but they will never carry it. Selecting a smaller weapon that will always be there may be a better choice.

There are small, large caliber weapons out there, but remember Issue Number One - how shootable is it for you. My friend with the super-charged Glock 29 was trying unsuccessfully to kill both issues with one choice. If you must carry a smaller weapon, and shootability issues are present, do not feel impotent because you had to decrease caliber size.

Issue Number Three - Availability.

By now we are entering the Hurricane season again and the memory of Katrina lies lightly on the minds of those who live in the Southeast. Natural disasters and riots can occur at any time. We are assuming that you will have your CCW pistol as a first line of defense until you can obtain something else. In the event you cannot get to your survival stash, you may need to resupply from regular sources.

If you carry a .357 SIG, or a 45 GAP, or any other new, non-mainstream caliber, do you think you will find the ammo you need? When I travel, I carry a Glock 17 in 9mm. Why? Because if my ammo does not arrive with my luggage (the illusion of security), I can always find 9mm. Perhaps not a huge issue but still something for consideration.

Issue Number Four - Effects On Target

This is where all the bullet salesmen come out and discuss amateur terminal ballistics. Listen folks - hundreds of thousands of people, both good guys and bad guys, have been killed with pistol shots in the last few decades. I will bet the majority of those have been shot with 9mm. Why do I say that? Because I travel all over the world to teach good guys how to prevail in gunfights and invariably the caliber of availability is 9mm.

"How on earth do they get past the fact that the 9mm is anemic and will bounce off a leather jacket?", someone may ask. Truth be told, they shoot the bad guys until they either fall down or run away. Usually it is the former. Its only here in the USA that we are so fixated on this issue of one or two shots.

We may hear all manner of arguments about the one caliber or another being the only true choice, but I will tell you that no single caliber will be the best choice for everyone. Heck, some people are better served with a caliber like 22 LR due to physical limits from advanced age or injury!

All calibers can fail, and have failed. When you look at the issues scientifically a 9mm or a .38 Special is approximately .357. A 40 S&W is 10mm. And a 45 ACP is 11mm. So could it be that we have basically one or two little millimeters separating "T-Rex Stopper" from "Merely Adequate", or "Anemically Inadequate"? Yes that is exactly right.

Let me put it in a different perspective. A student of mine who works for a narcotics Unit in the south recently reported in. He told me that he and his guys had gotten in a gunfight with a violent drug dealer. Our student shot the bad guy once with a shotgun loaded with Federal Tactical Slugs. (Slugs incidentally are about .72 caliber and are suggested as anti-bear insurance in Alaska). The shotgun slug entered the right side of the bad guy's chest from about the 2:00 and exited through the back at about the 8:00.

Nice shot. However, the bad guy not only kept fighting, but stole a car and evaded the pursuing police officers into a wooded area. A week later, the bad guy's attorney arranged for him to turn himself in. He was alive and well, albeit injured. Does anyone want to tell me how deadly their pistol round is now?

So select the size of your pistol first and foremost. Base it on what you need to carry it 24-7-365. That means all the time. Select a caliber that is easily obtained, and shootable for you. And finally, train to hit and keep hitting until the threat has gone away (one way or the other). A hit with a 9mm is far better than a marginal hit or a miss with a caliber you cannot control.
 

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Hunter said:
One student of mine who carries a 9mm was recently told that his 9mm was simply a 45 set on "stun". (The commentator however, declined to be stunned.)
LOL. Funniest thing I've read all day.
 

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All calibers can fail, and have failed. When you look at the issues scientifically a 9mm or a .38 Special is approximately .357. A 40 S&W is 10mm. And a 45 ACP is 11mm. So could it be that we have basically one or two little millimeters separating "T-Rex Stopper" from "Merely Adequate", or "Anemically Inadequate"? Yes that is exactly right.
While I agree with most of the article, this paragraph isn't all that accurate. There is a significant difference in the amount of damage caused by the different calibers. To lump the .38, 9mm and .357 together and call them the same is actually quite ignorant. While they all shoot about the same sized bullet, there is a huge difference in velocity (and obviously energy). .38s, due to their low pressure and generally short barrels, usually nudge the 1000 fps mark. A stiff 9mm load with a lighter bullet is usually upwards of 1200 fps, and a .357 is probably going to be 1300-1400 fps. Since energy varies with the square of velocity, a .357 is going to hit almost twice as hard as a .38 special.

A hit with a 9mm is far better than a marginal hit or a miss with a caliber you cannot control.
This is one of the best statements anyone could make about 'stopping power'.
 

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I split the difference: 124 +P gold dots. I've read through many of these types of threads as well as ballistics data. What you have to remember is that very few of us have real experience in shooting people with any bullets of any weight or size (thank goodness). And those who do have experience draw all their conclusions from one or two limited experiences. None of this would hold up as good research. Even the classic Miami shootout that changed the FBI's preference (and as a result, many police preferences) was only *one* event. People since have analyzed it many ways with many different conclusions. I find interest in them, but I don't draw definite conclusions from them.

Personally, I find the article at:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

interesting because he talks about hunting javalina with many different bullet types (see near the bottom). Granted, he is a little biased towards the 9mm, but it is interesting because it is *real world*. Their group had quite a few guns (9, 40, 45) and all worked on some pigs and all failed on some pigs. It highlights to me that the difference between 115 and 147 grains probably makes very little difference in the real world. So many other factors (like who you are shooting) are so overpowering that most handguns either work or don't work in any circumstance.

The other place I look for conclusions from are stories of soldiers who have used the different calibers and weights in war. Some of them have the large number of experiences required to really draw good conclusions.

Personally, I am comforted that I have *any gun* with me. I don't worry much about the 9 vs 40 vs 45 or the 115 gr vs 124 gr vs 147 gr or the P, +P, or +P+ debates. The point is you bring a gun that you are good with to the gunfight.
 

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I carry 115gr +p jhp Because the 115's travel quite a bit fasterthen the 124's or 147's and actually produce more ftlbs of energy at close distances which is where I think it matters most to me.

Speer Gold Dot JHP

Ballistics : 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17.

Ballistics : 124gr @ 1310fps / 473ft. lbs. from a G17.

Ballistics : 147gr @ 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17.
 

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Do a test like this...

Water Jug Tests

He tests everything from 100gr to the 147gr Federal HST, I would assume the water jugs are substitutes for gelatin and 2 of them match the density of going through a body (I have nothing to back this up).

Here's one of the images
Samples.S_UpRight.jpg

Look at #7 - it's that 147gr and it's purdy, but there are a few that flower out nice and big that aren't 147gr (like 3,5,6,11). But read the test it's pretty interesting.
 

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With 147 you lose some speed and ability to get the long shots. but with 115 you lose some stopping power. I shoot 124 jhp +p best of both worlds.
 

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bane said:
mqeqeshe,

....I thought your post was really good and provided interesting info.

But this thread is starting to represent yet another example of why I HATE threads like this.....
I get what BANE is trying to say. a freakin bullet is a bullet and if we are talking about marginal differences.... i mean...if someone shot me with a .22 or a 9mm or a 45 cal... i THINK im going down either way... are we talking about people hopped up on PCP :bat: or something like that? maybe big game attacks?
 

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I carry a Glock 36, now I want to sell it because of "HUNTER'S" reply above. :cry: I also have a GLOCK 19, that I enjoy shooting, I leave that one at home because my wife is comfortable shooting it. As far as ammo goes in the 9mm, I shoot mostly budget 147 grain rounds, because they're sub-sonic & I own a suppressor. I guess I will be looking for a buyer for my Glock 36 now. :crying:
 

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Dustin WJ said:
My gun is a 9mm and I'm trying to decide which ammo to carry for self defense. I've been shooting 115 gr. target rounds down at the range and yesterday I found some 115 gr. jacketed hollow points. Does anyone know if that has enough stopping power for self defense? Or should I buy the 147 gr. rounds? Thanks in advance.

Dustin
With either round you should get adequate expansion.....but many experts cite lack of penetration as a large problem with some self defense loads.

The lighter round will probably be a little faster, but will have less momentum and will lose its velocity faster and with less penetration.

There are those who are very worried about "over penetration" but statistically most rounds in a gunfight miss and I have to think that those rounds that miss are far more dangerous than those that may go through and through the bad guy.

With all those in mind I would go with the heavier round.

Tarzan
 

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LandoCommando said:
Federal Hydrashox. Best personal defense ammo on the market. Enough said.
I'm glad you are so enthusiastic about your choice. :roll:

Tarzan
 

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LandoCommando said:
Federal Hydrashox. Best personal defense ammo on the market. Enough said.
What makes it the best?
 

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swillden said:
LandoCommando said:
Federal Hydrashox. Best personal defense ammo on the market. Enough said.
What makes it the best?
Excellent question.

In reality the "Best personal defense ammo" is the one that always goes BANG in your gun and that you can deliver reliably on target.

If there is more than one type of ammo that meets those qualifications, then it is like debating which poison is more lethal....arsnic or cyanide....

If you're happy with your personal defense ammo....then I'm happy with your personal defense ammo.

Tarzan
 

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Tarzan1888 said:
swillden said:
LandoCommando said:
Federal Hydrashox. Best personal defense ammo on the market. Enough said.
What makes it the best?
Excellent question.

In reality the "Best personal defense ammo" is the one that always goes BANG in your gun and that you can deliver reliably on target.

If there is more than one type of ammo that meets those qualifications, then it is like debating which poison is more lethal....arsnic or cyanide....

If you're happy with your personal defense ammo....then I'm happy with your personal defense ammo.

Tarzan
Every caliber and every scenario is different.

Are you planning on getting attacked by 5 well trained assassins? 1 tweaker looking for their next fix? A handful of gang members?

Are you going to carry openly in a duty holster? Ankle carry? Pocket carry? Etc?

Can you shoot .22? .38? 9mm? 45? And hit what you intend? What about under stress?

Whats better: being able to spell your name out in .22 bullets on the bad guy’s forehead OR hoping to hit center mass with a .45 or 10mm?

Are you taking a well placed shot to end a mall shooting at 50 yards OR a shot with your muzzle in the guys belly?

If there was a single best choice then we would all carry _________ with ________ ammo. But as it stands you ask 5 guys and you get 5 different answers.

I tend to carry commonly accepted guns/ammo (usually what the police use) to avoid the chance of a lawsuit over my weapon/ammo choice
 

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xmirage2kx said:
Every caliber and every scenario is different.

Are you planning on getting attacked by 5 well trained assassins? 1 tweaker looking for their next fix? A handful of gang members?

Are you going to carry openly in a duty holster? Ankle carry? Pocket carry? Etc?

Can you shoot .22? .38? 9mm? 45? And hit what you intend? What about under stress?

Whats better: being able to spell your name out in .22 bullets on the bad guy’s forehead OR hoping to hit center mass with a .45 or 10mm?

Are you taking a well placed shot to end a mall shooting at 50 yards OR a shot with your muzzle in the guys belly?

If there was a single best choice then we would all carry _________ with ________ ammo. But as it stands you ask 5 guys and you get 5 different answers.

I tend to carry commonly accepted guns/ammo (usually what the police use) to avoid the chance of a lawsuit over my weapon/ammo choice
As I read your post I think we are in agreement...

I might add....
If I thought I was going to be attacked by 5 assasins....I wouldn't go there....But I do practice and carry so that IF I was....I would be ready.

Tarzan
 
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