[PetersenRD]

I'm down in the UC (Happy Valley for the rest of you) and have started looking for the 50 count boxes of Federal HST in .40 180 grain. Stopped by Sportsman's today and it didn't look like they carry it. I know Wally World doesn't have it. Haven't had time to head up to Gunnies or Cabella's yet.

Does anyone know if you can find this stuff locally, or do you have to order it online. I've seen the 50 count boxes online for around $25, but haven't been able to find it locally yet. I'd rather pick it up locally if there is a spot, but if not I'll just order it.

 

[rdoggsilva]

I saw it the other day at Gallenson's, downtown Salt Lake at 2nd S. at 2nd E. I use it in 45acp and 38spl. This is where I get mine. cost $19-22 a box of 50.

 

[GeneticsDave]

I saw it the other day at Gallenson's, downtown Salt Lake at 2nd S. at 2nd E. I use it in 45acp and 38spl. This is where I get mine. cost $19-22 a box of 50.

+1 on Gallenson's - if you want to make the trip to the downtown SLC. :ROFL:

 

[PetersenRD]

I've actually got to head that way on Friday, so I guess I'll have to stop by. Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Mazellan]

A while back I was looking for HST in .45 and couldn't find it. Cabelas didn't have it but a couple months ago they did have it in .40 when I bought my glock. I think they were just back ordered or something. It could be due to Federal coming out with the low recoil HST. They do have the Low recoil HST at sportsman's and I believe they may have the regulars in .40 and .45. I haven't checked in a while so I can't be positive. Good luck

 

[NPD]

I bought some .40 HST at gallenson's a few weeks ago, but I don't think they had any in 180g, only 165g. Also, when I was in there last week I only saw Hydra-shock, I didn't see any more HST where they were before. I didn't ask if they had any more because I still have some left. Make sure you call ahead so you don't end up wasting a trip. They had boxes of 50 for $20.

 

[reid36]

IMO, forget buying it locally. Im a Gold Dot man myself (to each his own) but around here the good defensive ammo goes for about $20-$23 for a box of 20 and the 50 count boxes are rare indeed. I order all my defensive ammo from Ammunitiontogo.com. I just ordered a 50 box of 185gr .45 GD's for $33 shipped. Thats hard to beat around here!

 

[divegeek]

It could be due to Federal coming out with the low recoil HST.

What's with the "low recoil" HST ammo? Doesn't "low recoil" essentially mean "light load"? I guess by going with a slower-burning powder they could spread the recoil a little without reducing the charge? Given that short handgun barrels rarely allow a bullet time to get up to full velocity it seems like that would still cause a significant reduction in muzzle velocity. You can also reduce felt recoil with a heavier slug, but the HSTs don't have super-heavy slugs.

I guess if you have problems with recoil it would make sense to get low recoil rounds. Am I missing something?

Personally, I'm carrying +P+ 147 gr Gold Dots in my XD9SC.

 

[Tarzan1888]

....What's with the "low recoil" HST ammo? Doesn't "low recoil" essentially mean "light load"?....

I think you hit the nail right on the head. You can't really have it both ways.

It is like when I used to sell cars and noticed that some car dealers advertised that they gave the best trade in value for your old car and then also told you that they sell their used cars at a lower price than anyone else.

It can't be both ways as they have to make money......It is the same with loads. Do you want stopping power or low recoil. :dunno:

Tarzan

 

[xmirage2kx]

....What's with the "low recoil" HST ammo? Doesn't "low recoil" essentially mean "light load"?....

I think you hit the nail right on the head. You can't really have it both ways.

It is like when I used to sell cars and noticed that some car dealers advertised that they gave the best trade in value for your old car and then also told you that they sell their used cars at a lower price than anyone else.

It can't be both ways as they have to make money......It is the same with loads. Do you want stopping power or low recoil. :dunno:

Tarzan

Heavy enough gun and you wont notice the hotter load

 

[GeneticsDave]

Found this over on Wikipedia. It doesn't really go into the lower recoil bit, but should explain the difference between some loads by Federal:

Currently, the company makes several major brands of defense ammunition: Hydrashok, Expanding Full Metal Jacket, and HST. Hydrashok has been popular among American law enforcement agencies for many years now while the newer HST ammunition is a bold design that has shown in testing to expand reliably to more than twice the original bullet diameter. Alliant TechSystems (ATK), which owns Federal and Speer has conducted many Wound Ballistic Workshops in various police agencies around the country using Winchester SXT, Speer Gold Dot, and the HST. The Speer Gold Dot was the only "bonded" bullet used in several workshops. Testing is completed in 10% ordnance gelatin, and consists of shots in bare gelatin, gelatin covered in FBI specification Heavy Clothing, steel, wallboard, plywood, and the toughest challenge of all- laminated automobile safety glass. The HST performed incredibly well in all categories, with consistent and adequate expansion, penetration and weight retention, with very few (if any) core-jacket seperations. The Winchester SXT had many core-jacket seperations in several categories including with all rounds fired through auto glass. Speer's Gold Dot performance was parallel to the HST's. HST, being new and with such promising test results, is difficult to obtain anywhere but in law enforcement circles and actual, reliable data on "street" performance is still pending. Also relatively new is the Expanding Full Metal Jacket, EFMJ, ammunition which uses a lead core and polymer tip completely encased by a copper jacket. The idea behind this being that it is guaranteed to feed reliably in autoloaders (a problem for some hollowpoints and firearms) and, because there is no "hollow" that can be filled, things like heavy clothing, glass, or drywall will not prevent the ammunition from expanding. This gives the EFMJ ammunition a very reliable rate of expansion at the potential drawback of a lighter bullet which moderately reduces the energy it carries.

 

[divegeek]

Heavy enough gun and you wont notice the hotter load

It's not just about weight, either. I had a recent experience with this that I found interesting.

Over Memorial Day weekend I went shooting with a bunch of family members. Among others, we shot my dad's Beretta 9000S, a polymer-frame sub-compact in .40, my XD9SC and my uncle's 9x18 mm (not sure what make or model). The 9x18 was significantly heavier than either the Beretta or the XD, and the round is quite a bit less powerful than the 9x19 much less the .40.

In spite of the heavier gun and lighter load, that 9x18 had much more felt recoil. Enough that it wasn't much fun to shoot; it left the web between thumb and finger stinging after two or three shots, and I'm sure shooting 100 rounds or so would be bruising. In comparison, I think I could put box after box through either the XD or the Beretta without getting sore.

We decided the difference probably came from two factors. First, in the polymer guns, all of the weight is in the barrel and slide, in line with the force vector. Weight in the frame doesn't do as much to reduce recoil because that mass mostly just gets rotated a little, rather than pushed back like the in-line mass does. Second, both of the polymer guns have double springs and a much longer slide movement, spreading that part of the recoil out over a longer time.

In any case, not even my 11 year-old has any trouble with the recoil from +P+ rounds in my XD9. With recoil so well controlled, I don't see any need for low recoil ammunition, unless it can be achieved without losing penetration or stopping power.

 

[Tarzan1888]

Heavy enough gun and you wont notice the hotter load

It's not just about weight, either. I had a recent experience with this that I found interesting.

Over Memorial Day weekend I went shooting with a bunch of family members. Among others, we shot my dad's Beretta 9000S, a polymer-frame sub-compact in .40, my XD9SC and my uncle's 9x18 mm (not sure what make or model). The 9x18 was significantly heavier than either the Beretta or the XD, and the round is quite a bit less powerful than the 9x19 much less the .40.

In spite of the heavier gun and lighter load, that 9x18 had much more felt recoil. Enough that it wasn't much fun to shoot; it left the web between thumb and finger stinging after two or three shots, and I'm sure shooting 100 rounds or so would be bruising. In comparison, I think I could put box after box through either the XD or the Beretta without getting sore.

We decided the difference probably came from two factors. First, in the polymer guns, all of the weight is in the barrel and slide, in line with the force vector. Weight in the frame doesn't do as much to reduce recoil because that mass mostly just gets rotated a little, rather than pushed back like the in-line mass does. Second, both of the polymer guns have double springs and a much longer slide movement, spreading that part of the recoil out over a longer time.

In any case, not even my 11 year-old has any trouble with the recoil from +P+ rounds in my XD9. With recoil so well controlled, I don't see any need for low recoil ammunition, unless it can be achieved without losing penetration or stopping power.

There is another possible explanation for the difference in your felt recoil Swillden.

I have a good friend that has a Colt 1903 Pistol in .32 ACP We used to do a lot of field work in Nevada together and we would always do some shooting at lunch time. I was carrying my SA 1911 A1 GI in .45 ACP

He got his gun from his dad and it is in great shape. We would take turns shooting each others gun and the first time I shot his I felt the same stinging in the web of my hand that you describe.

Both are all steel guns, and are of a size commensurate with the size of the respective charges in the rounds, so I wondered at the great difference in the felt recoil

Both guns are Browning designs, with the 1911 being the newer design of the two. There are a lot of similarities in the two guns, but some marked differences.

The one single difference that I concluded would have the greatest impact on felt recoil was the angle of the handle in respect to the rest of the gun frame.

The 1911 handle meets the frame at a slightly higher angle. This makes it more ergonomically user friendly.

The more straight up and down angle of the 1903, makes it slap you hand when you fire it, where as the 1911 changes the force vectors resulting in more of a push.

JMB got it right with the 1911, and the XD has a similar angle on its handle to frame, and the Beretta is the same too.

I don't know anything about the gun that you shot last week end, but a difference in the angle of the handle may be responsible for some, if not all of the felt recoil difference.

Tarzan

 

[Car Knocker]

In spite of the heavier gun and lighter load, that 9x18 had much more felt recoil.

Another reason for that is that most 9x18 (and smaller calibers) pistols are blowback actions rather than the locked-breech actions that the larger calibers tend to have. That heavy slide cycling really tends to batter the hand.

 

[divegeek]

I don't know anything about the gun that you shot last week end, but a difference in the angle of the handle may be responsible for some, if not all of the felt recoil difference.

Though I didn't specifically compare grip angles, I don't recall there being a difference.

I'll take a look next time I see the gun.

 

[divegeek]

In spite of the heavier gun and lighter load, that 9x18 had much more felt recoil.

Another reason for that is that most 9x18 (and smaller calibers) pistols are blowback actions rather than the locked-breech actions that the larger calibers tend to have. That heavy slide cycling really tends to batter the hand.

Interesting... but it seems to me that the heavy slide should reduce felt recoil, not increase it, unless maybe the recoil spring isn't strong enough so the slide hits the backstop hard?

However, a locked-breech design does seem like it would help, since the rearward-movement of the barrel adds a little more to the recoiling mass, at least until it stops and transfers that energy to the frame (and then to your hand).

 

[Tarzan1888]

I don't know anything about the gun that you shot last week end, but a difference in the angle of the handle may be responsible for some, if not all of the felt recoil difference.

Though I didn't specifically compare grip angles, I don't recall there being a difference.

I'll take a look next time I see the gun.

If all else is the same then Car Knocker may be right.

Tarzan

 

[Car Knocker]

but it seems to me that the heavy slide should reduce felt recoil, not increase it, unless maybe the recoil spring isn't strong enough so the slide hits the backstop hard?

More reciprocating mass in that heavier slide equals greater forces to be absorbed by the hand. The recoil spring just extends the lenght of and flattens the recoil pulse, it doesn't absorb and dissipate recoil forces into the aether. If you used a pistol whose slide locked back on the last round and also used a heavy recoil spring that didn't fully collapse with the round being used, that last shot fired would still generate a normal recoil pulse albeit without the secondary pulse of the slide slamming forward.

 

[divegeek]

but it seems to me that the heavy slide should reduce felt recoil, not increase it, unless maybe the recoil spring isn't strong enough so the slide hits the backstop hard?

More reciprocating mass in that heavier slide equals greater forces to be absorbed by the hand. The recoil spring just extends the lenght of and flattens the recoil pulse, it doesn't absorb and dissipate recoil forces into the aether.

Nothing absorbs and dissipates the forces into the aether. All of the energy is ultimately delivered to the hand, except for tiny amounts that are dissipated as heat. A heavy gun slams into your hand with the same kinetic energy that a light gun does, the difference is that it's at a lower velocity. Anything that spreads the recoil pulse out over a longer time period will also reduce the velocity imparted to the hand, reducing felt recoil.

Increasing the mass of the slide doesn't increase or decrease the force to be absorbed by the hand, but it does increase the mass of the gun being thrown directly back, which reduces felt recoil as compared to a lighter slide. Adding mass to the slide should decrease felt recoil more than adding mass to, say, the grip, which doesn't move as much as the upper part of the gun and doesn't deliver as much of the recoil energy to the hand.

It's been a long time since my college physics courses, but I can't see any way in which a heavier slide could increase felt recoil, unless the recoil spring is inadequate to stop the slide. The recoil spring delivers the energy from the slide to the frame as it first slows the slide and then pushes it back forward. Ideally the spring delivers half of the slide's energy to the frame while being compressed, and bringing the slide's rearward motion to a complete stop, then applies the other half (which was stored during compression) to the frame as it decompresses and pushes the slide forward. A spring that does not bring the slide to a stop before being fully compressed will cause the remaining kinetic energy in the slide to be transferred to the frame all at once, resulting in a sharp jolt to the frame. Since the frame is basically rigid, that jolt will be transferred to the hand, resulting in a lot of felt recoil.

Well, either that or I'm up in the night... which is entirely possible

 

[PetersenRD]

This is all great info guys, and I really appreciate it. I'll be picking up some HST at Gallenson's on Friday. Back to my original question, does anyone know where I can pick some up in Utah County? Thanks guys!