[knayrb]

As I have read this and other forums I realize that their are a many of you that carry a backup gun. I have always tried to weigh the probability (risk) of meeting up with a deadly threat vs. being prepared. Maybe I've been lucky my whole life but in 48 years, the worst threat I've run into was when I got into playground fist fight in the 6th grade. (Nobody tells me that my girl friend has fleas!)

I am not a statistician but if I understand some of gun stats I've heard I have to ask myself these questions:

1) What do I think is the chance that I will have to actually use my gun to stop a deadly threat?

2) Of that percentage what percentage do I have to actually fire? I've heard that about 90% of the time just producing a gun will scare the BG away.

3) Of that percent what is the percentage that you will have to fire more rounds than are in your magazine. I've read that rarely is more that 3.

4) Also of the percentage in 2) What is the percentage of someone taking your primary gun away and you having enough time to get to your BUG before he uses it against you?

If you take the percent of the percent of the percent you mentally get a pretty small number or risk factor. I probably have a greater chance of being trampled in a stampede of purple Hippos on State Street but like I said before, I am not a statistician. Personally I don't carry a backup gun but as usual others have their own reasons. My thinking is something down the line of if I am in an area that I need more that one gun then I probably shouldn't be in that area. I think that LEO have a totally different needs than CCW citizens and so in my mind have a greater need for a BUG. Also you may work or live in an area that has greater risk than the general public.

What are other's views and reasons for carrying or not carrying a BUG?

BTW - Many of you might be traveling tomorrow and over the weekend. I want to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and hope that you have a safe year in which you never need to use your gun except for the sheer fun of shooting.

 

[James]

I think that the odds that you will ever need a gun for self defense are pretty slim. I have lived in Utah for 67 years and never needed one yet. I am not a LEO nor in the military. I live in a small town where crime is very rare. So I am at pretty low risk to begin with.

I carry a 5 shot revolver. No extra ammo most of the time.
I see no need for a BUG.

You might ask, "Why even carry?"

Because I can!

 

[GeneticsDave]

Well, first of all, let me tell you that I am versed in statistics and that it is a science that easily lends itself to manipulation.

Second, statistics don't matter when you are the statistic. Even if the odds were extremely low that you would have to shoot an assailant, would you be willing to bet your life on that improbability? How about the lives of your loved-ones? Just because the odds of your house burning down are extremely low wouldn't prevent you from buying and maintaining multiple smoke detectors and extinguishers. Fact is, I've only known one person who's house has burnt down, but I and many people I know have been victims of crime. Statistics just don't matter on life and death issues.

Carrying a BUG (Back Up Gun) is not really about how many bad guys there are or if you are going to be blazing away with both at the same time. If you need more ammo, just buy and carry more magazines - it's a lot cheaper. A BUG is useful if your primary firearm becomes jammed... no, not a stovepipe or double feed, I'm talking about a casing that is lodged in the mouth of the barrel and cannot be extracted. In this case you would discard your primary weapon and draw your BUG. Also, perhaps you lose your primary weapon (heaven forbid) to an assailant or the like and you are then unarmed, a BUG is useful then as well. I don't think the rounds fired is necessarily accurate, the average number of people that you will be assaulted by is also three and it will happen and be over with in roughly three seconds.

Deciding not to carry a BUG or other weapon is like not carrying additional magazines, you have one gun and one mag and you better hope they don't malfunction and that they provide you enough protection.

But hey, if someone wants to live in the world of averages (see the rule of threes), that is a personal decision and I won't condemn it - but it won't be me.

 

[Ruger Collector]

You might ask, "Why even carry?"

Because I can!

Amen Brother!!!

 

[Paul]

No BUG for me. I also do not carry extra magazines. I figure if I can't do what is needed in 6-15 shots, I probably shouldn't be carrying.

kyanbr, BTW...what happens if someone says your girlfriend has cooties? LOL.. Fleas are bad, but cooties are worse....

-PW

 

[GeneticsDave]

I figure if I can't do what is needed in 6-15 shots, I probably shouldn't be carrying.

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. What if a group of gang-bangers (8-12) attacks you in a parking lot. Are you saying that you could protect yourself with only 6-15 bullets?

Also, when or what would you ever do that would make you feel that you shouldn't be carrying? I never feel that I shouldn't be carrying. There are times when I can't carry, but I always feel that I should be carrying. Granted there are activities that nobody should do (jogging around downtown at 3 am) - but they are just safety issues, not gun issues.

 

[Ruger Collector]

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean. What if a group of gang-bangers (8-12) attacks you in a parking lot. Are you saying that you could protect yourself with only 6-15 bullets?

90% of the time if you quickly eliminate the biggest and badest, the leader in a gruesome manner, the rest of the pack will run.

 

[GeneticsDave]

Oh, OK. Hopefully that works.

 

[Paul]

If you are attacked by 10 gang bangers, I doubt having backup magazines is going to do you any good.... Shot the leader, then ask then who wants it next. If 10 guys want to attack you, it won't matter how many BUG's or extra magazines you carry, you will lose.

I don't know exactly what you thought I was saying about not carrying... I got confused in your post, but I think you misunderstood me somehow. I carry 24/7, except where I legally can't and recommend everyone else carry 24/7. My point was that if I can't eliminate my target in the amount of rounds that my gun can hold, and accurately hit what I am aiming at, I probably shouldn't be carrying a gun. I for one am more worried about reacting correctly in the situation, than how many rounds I have to through in the air. I expect my rounds to count....

-PW

 

[GeneticsDave]

Well, I appreciate your post, but I disagree. If I could get a shot at each of the gang-bangers, that would use up my first magazine, I would then perform an emergency reload and see if the threat is still there. If so, then I continue my shots until the threat is neutralized. I would never ask someone if they want me to shoot them, that's a terrible thing to think or say, even to a criminal. I don't want to shoot them, I only want to go home alive.

Also, I refuse to accept that if a certain number of criminals attack me I will lose. I never accept defeat, especially when my life depends on it. I will continue to fight to my last breath. Accepting a defeatist attitude is a sure way to lose when the chips are down.

My response to "if I can't eliminate my target in the amount of rounds that my gun can hold, and accurately hit what I am aiming at, I probably shouldn't be carrying a gun" is you are right. If you can't do that, you should get more training, not just say you can't do it and carry everyday unprepared for what might transpire.

I admire you for worrying about reacting correctly in the situation and how many rounds you have flying around - but to be honest, unless you already know these things before you get in a gunfight, you will find yourself hesitating when you life is on the line.

I also expect my rounds to count and I carry a lot so that I can count on them stopping any immediate threat, great or small.

 

[T-Man]

I like the scenario of "getting attacked by 10 gang-bangers." Let's go with that. The way I see it, one of two things are going to happen to said Bad Guys once you produce your pistol. Either A. They see it, and/or hear it fire, and run, because they are out-gunned. Or B. They pull their guns out and they shoot you. Maybe you take some with you, but you do end up full of holes. Either way, I don't see how a BUG is going to help.

I don't carry a BUG for several reasons. I have had a hard enough time convincing my wife that carrying a gun is a good idea, I'm not going to push the issue by carrying two. Also, I don't think it is really necessary. One reliable firearm that I am proficient in handling should be enough. If it's not, well I guess I'm in big trouble. I'll sometimes carry extra ammo, depending on the situation.

Not bashing on anyone who chooses to carry a BUG. To each his own.

 

[Jeff Johnson]

I don't have a link for this, but I recall reading that the off-duty Ogden officer who was there at the recent Trolley Square shooting said afterward in an interview that he felt very vulnerable when his magazine ran dry and he had no spare. If I recall correctly, he said that he never wanted to be without a spare magazine again.

His actions did cause the killer to go to cover long enough for SLC police to arrive and finish the job, thereby saving many more lives.

In real-world shoot-outs, most shots are misses. It's not like standing there punching holes in paper.

I usually carry a spare magazine. Sometimes I'm carrying a BUG as well.

 

[doconix]

I agree with you. Life is all about risks and carrying a primary gun addresses almost all the risk. The need for us "normal" (non LEO, non military, non live-in-a-bad-part-of-town) people to carry a BUG is not there.

Thinking about the other risks in life, I don't carry:
- portable scuba equipment in my car, just in case I crash into a river or lake.
- portable heart shocker just in case I or someone else goes into cardiac arrest
- my passport, just in case I need to leave at a moment's notice
- a second spare tire, just in case I break two tires (which my Dad actually did [on the same side on the same rock] clear out in the mountains when I was young -- we walked all day to get back to civilization).
- a few bags of my own blood, just in case I get cut badly and need blood.
- the jaws of life in my back seat, just in case someone gets in a wreck.

I could go on, but I hope you get my point. For me, my primary gun is sufficient to hit most of the odds.

Now, if you want to carry a BUG just because it makes you feel better or just because it's fun, I'm all for it. I'm just saying I don't think the risks alone justify the decision.

 

[Hunter]

One reason to carry BUG that wasn't mentioned, if needed you can arm someone else. Thus, putting two guns in action that would be on your side.

Jeff is correct about The Off Duty Officer at Trolley Square. He had a Kimber single stack .45 with just the magazine in the gun. I remember a reporter asked him this in one of news conferences he did after the shooting.

 

[Paul]

I refuse to accept that if a certain number of criminals attack me I will lose. I never accept defeat, especially when my life depends on it. I will continue to fight to my last breath. Accepting a defeatist attitude is a sure way to lose when the chips are down.

I admire your optimism! I like to consider myself a realist.

Getting jumped by 10 gang bangers, being able to shoot all 10 before they get you, with a quick stop for a reload in the middle, sounds like a good Hollywood movie to me.

Still not quite sure where you get the idea that I am uncomfortable carrying.... I may be a rookie, but I don't consider myself uncomfortable.

-PW

 

[lockout]

I refuse to accept that if a certain number of criminals attack me I will lose. I never accept defeat, especially when my life depends on it. I will continue to fight to my last breath. Accepting a defeatist attitude is a sure way to lose when the chips are down.

I admire your optimism! I like to consider myself a realist.

Getting jumped by 10 gang bangers, being able to shoot all 10 before they get you, with a quick stop for a reload in the middle, sounds like a good Hollywood movie to me.

Still not quite sure where you get the idea that I am uncomfortable carrying.... I may be a rookie, but I don't consider myself uncomfortable.

-PW

yeah maybe a good movie if this occurred in an open parking lot and all of the BGs are armed. you just never know what your surroundings might be. Why not just be a little more prepared with an extra mag or BUG?
truthfully 95% of the time i carry 12 rounds of .40 the other 5% i carry a backup mag....but i recall exactly what jeff mentioned regarding the off duty LEO at trolley square said. i don't know if he ran out of ammo, but i know he was very concerned about having enough. When i remember this it does make me a little uneasy about my limited ammo. i do have an extra mag in the glove box, and an extra one at work now. i *try* to carry an extra one with me too, i just hate extra stuff in my pockets and until i can get an IWB mag holder i can't carry one on my belt.

i have a friend who carries an XD .40 with only 10 rounds (instead of the 12 it can hold) because "if he can't get 'it' done with 10 rounds, then he wouldn't make it anyway". i think he is silly.

 

[GeneticsDave]

Getting jumped by 10 gang bangers, being able to shoot all 10 before they get you, with a quick stop for a reload in the middle, sounds like a good Hollywood movie to me.

Still not quite sure where you get the idea that I am uncomfortable carrying.... I may be a rookie, but I don't consider myself uncomfortable.

-PW

Well, my point was that if you can get a hit on each of the bad guys, you will likely slow them down or make them reconsider. If needed, you could perform an emergency reload in less than 1.2 seconds (with training). It's not Hollywood, it's training. But I guess that it's skill at arms that we appreciate in Hollywood movies, I know I don't like the movies that are unrealistic. I'm a realist as well, and know that it is unlikely that I will hit with every shot placed, but I will hit and continue to hit until I run out of bullets, then I will reload and continue to hit. That is my argument for extra guns/ammo. In a gun fight there are two things you never have enough of: time and ammo - make every shot count, carry more than you think you will need and train with time trials so you can consistently get faster.

I didn't mean to imply that you felt uncomfortable carrying a gun. I don't know you personally or train with you, so I can't say that you aren't proficient. You were saying that if you can't X, Y, and Z then you shouldn't be carrying a gun. I would always carry a gun if possible, at very least it's an expensive club. I liked what Hunter said about carrying a BUG, my primary reason is if I run into a situation where my main carry weapon stops functioning (never happened yet, but it has to other people while I was training with them), that's why I recommend a BUG. I'm not saying that everyone needs one, I just don't think it's appropriate to dismiss the idea solely based upon the odds that you probably won't be attacked. You have to wake up each day expecting it to happen, if you don't, you won't be ready. If you realize that today might be the day then ask yourself, "Do I want to leave the house with only one gun and one magazine?"

Finally, to doconix, I appreciate you candid remarks, but I don't think they apply in this situation. The situations that you put forward are real, however, they are not realistic. How would you keep extra pints of your own blood with you? How would you start an IV on yourself if injured? How would you operate or afford the Jaws of Life? How would you access Scuba gear while flying off a bridge into water? A portable defibrillator is a good idea, if you are trained to use it and can afford one. A spare tire should always be a solid tire if possible (never goes flat), or you should carry the can of goo and compressed air to inflate and seal holes - no need to carry an extra tire (but I'm not saying it's a bad idea). You might also want to carry a portable battery charger when you need a jump and nobody is around (while we talk about cars). My point here is that it's a lot easier to carry a BUG than do ANY of the things you mentioned and your life or someone else's might just depend on it. It's your choice, I've made mine.

 

[tapehoser]

At first I carried the extra mag in my holster so that at any given moment I had 24 rounds of .45 ACP on me at any time. But it HURTS! Carrying that extra mag was murder on my hip! I suppose if I did it long enough I would get used to it.

Who knows....maybe I need a better holster that will accommodate all that gear in a more comfortable manner.

Any suggestions on an IWB holster that will accommodate and extra magazine for an XD45 Compact? Because, after reading this thread, I think I will start to carry the 'full compliment' of cartridges that I can manage.

 

[apollosmith]

Some very interesting reading from Ayoob on the subject - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_84145947

I also think the tactical advantages of a BUG over plenty of ammo and/or a spare magazine are minimal. For LEOs and those that carry openly where the likelihood of someone taking your primary weapon is a bit higher, a BUG makes a lot of sense. There's a pretty famous video (can't find it now) of an officer that had his gun taken, pulled his ankle holster, and shot the guy in a shootout. I'll bet that guy never goes anywhere without a BUG.

 

[Ruger Collector]

90% of the time if you quickly eliminate the biggest and badest, the leader in a gruesome manner, the rest of the pack will run.

Oh, OK. Hopefully that works.

You Sir, underestimate the cowardice of gang members, and most criminals in general.. Let's step out of the hypothetical and look at some REAL recent events...

Son and grandson save Ken from armed home invasion thugs. One intruder pronounced dead at the scene. Three others arrested.

An undercover deputy shot and wounded one of two would-be robbers who tried to hold him up at gunpoint Monday evening in a suburban West Palm Beach apartment complex, Palm Beach County sheriff's spokesman Pete Palenzuela said.

One gang member killed in West Valley City home invasion. Two others on the run.

Deputies were told five black men, wearing red hats and shirts (bloods gang colors) and carrying guns, came to the small grocery store, but left without any money after the owner brandished a gun.

A man in Orange County grabbed a shotgun and shot and killed one of three home invaders...

Police are continuing to search for a robbery suspect who fled after an off-duty reserve Harris County deputy constable shot and killed his alleged accomplice...

ST. LOUIS - One of four home invasion suspects shot and killed by resident...

Home Invaders No Match For BB Gun-Toting Dad - Intruders Wield AK-47, Grab Girl By Her Hair

63-year-old Carthage woman foils burglary attempt

I'm not against carrying reloads or a BUG, I carry both frequently, but the odds of needing either, are much slimmer than the odds of needing your gun in the first place.