I agree, but every year this same thing comes up.
The word "may" in section (2) isn't as strong as "shall". (Study the difference between "may issue" CCW states vs. "shall issue" states.) In my mind the word "may" makes the list of methods in 2(a) - 2(e) as possibilities but not fully inclusive or maybe not even required.(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
(a) personal communication to the actor by:
(i) the church or organization operating the house of worship;
(ii) the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
(iii) a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
(b) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
(c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
(d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
(e) publication in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state.
Again that word "may" in section (3)(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:
(a) revoke the notice, with or without supersedure, by giving further notice in any manner provided in Subsection (2); and
(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.
Now we get into the "shall" section which in my mind is a full fledged requirement. This is what the Church has done. I don't know if they do it every year as required and I can't find anywhere on the BCI sight when they received or didn't receive the notification. Personally I think that the wording on this legislation could be made more clear.(4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.
(ii) The division shall post on its website a list of the churches and organizations operating houses of worship who have given notice under Subsection (4)(a)(i).
(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.
Subsection 2 is not optional. If it were, all of section 76-10-530 would be irrelevant. That a church must give notification is very clear when reading the section from the start:knayrb said:In my mind the word "may" makes the list of methods in 2(a) - 2(e) as possibilities but not fully inclusive or maybe not even required.
In other words, this whole section applies only after notice has been given. If no notice is given, you can legally carry.1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
it doesn't mean that the church doesn't have to give notice, it simply means that the church may choose the method of notification.(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
Odds are that you wouldn't get a ticket even if you got caught. Most likely, your bishop would just say "please don't do that again", and it would end there.TMG said:I would weigh the risk of not carrying versus the cost of getting a ticket. I wouldn't carry open for all to see, but I would carry.
Good post! Are you 100% positive there is an no guns in LDS church policy in the bishops handbook?swillden said:Odds are that you wouldn't get a ticket even if you got caught. Most likely, your bishop would just say "please don't do that again", and it would end there.TMG said:I would weigh the risk of not carrying versus the cost of getting a ticket. I wouldn't carry open for all to see, but I would carry.
There's another aspect to consider as well, though, and one that applies even outside of Utah. That is the fact that the church leadership has directed members not to bring firearms to church. It's even documented in the bishop's handbook. "Concealed is concealed" doesn't apply to God, and while I'm sure he has no objection to us being armed, it's possible he'd dislike the lack of obedience.
I'm not saying you shouldn't carry, just that you should be sure that you've considered this aspect.
(The rest of this may strike non-LDS people as odd, but recall that we're talking about a church that believes firmly in individual, direct revelation)
To me, it seems like the real answer is that individual members should ask the Lord themselves what he wants them to do. Maybe he wants us to play the role of protector, and maybe he'd prefer we follow the example of the Anti-Nephi-Lehites (Alma 24). I suspect that the answer may well be different for different people -- and it may even change from day to day, per the promptings of the spirit.
FWIW, my personal answer is that I don't generally carry at church. If I happen to forget to take the gun off (hasn't happened but knowing me as I do, it eventually will), I won't sweat it too much, but I won't generally carry. That said, I definitely try to pay attention to the promptings of the spirit, and if I feel prompted to carry, I will.
I found it in the handbook yesterday, but I didn't do more than glance at the actual text.PW said:Are you 100% positive there is an no guns in LDS church policy in the bishops handbook?
I Googled it, too, and found what was probably the same site you did. It's a 1998 edition. I imagine the bit about firearms was added around 2004, when the church distributed the statement banning firearms.hamm said:I actually just searched in the Church Handbook of Instructions Book 1 and it doesn't mention guns or weapons. This book is only made available to bishops and stake presidents, etc., but I have a pdf copy I got off of some anti-Mormon site .