[hamm]

I believe that January is the month that the LDS Church has to renew its BCI posting. If you read the law regarding church carry (76-10-530), you will see the requirement that the church must announce the prohibition over the pulpit or in a publication every year. I don't recall the LDS Church doing this since 2004. I think the reason they have been getting away with this is that the BCI's website (http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFChurchNotify.html) does not list this as being a requirement for churches to list with them.

I was wondering if there is anyone willing to call the BCI and let them know that by using this web page (http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFChurchNotify.html), churches are able to be listed without fully complying with the law. I would call them myself, but I'm fairly new to guns and am not very confident in my abilities to come across as being competent. Is there someone with some kind of clout that could contact them?

If the LDS Church expects us to comply with the law, then we should expect them to do so as well.

 

[xmirage2kx]

I agree, but every year this same thing comes up.

 

[Cinhil]

Ditto. I have checked on this every year, the LDS church has not lawfully complied with the requirements for notification, other than BCI notification. Two requirements must be met each year. I too have only ever seen one requirement fulfilled.
Probably won't do us good anyhow.

 

[knayrb]

Here is my opinion on this and I'm sure it is different from many others:

(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
(a) personal communication to the actor by:
(i) the church or organization operating the house of worship;
(ii) the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
(iii) a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
(b) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
(c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
(d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
(e) publication in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state.

The word "may" in section (2) isn't as strong as "shall". (Study the difference between "may issue" CCW states vs. "shall issue" states.) In my mind the word "may" makes the list of methods in 2(a) - 2(e) as possibilities but not fully inclusive or maybe not even required.

(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:
(a) revoke the notice, with or without supersedure, by giving further notice in any manner provided in Subsection (2); and
(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.

Again that word "may" in section (3)

(4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.
(ii) The division shall post on its website a list of the churches and organizations operating houses of worship who have given notice under Subsection (4)(a)(i).
(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.

Now we get into the "shall" section which in my mind is a full fledged requirement. This is what the Church has done. I don't know if they do it every year as required and I can't find anywhere on the BCI sight when they received or didn't receive the notification. Personally I think that the wording on this legislation could be made more clear.

Everyone is entitled to my opinion :wink:

 

[hamm]

In my mind the word "may" makes the list of methods in 2(a) - 2(e) as possibilities but not fully inclusive or maybe not even required.

Subsection 2 is not optional. If it were, all of section 76-10-530 would be irrelevant. That a church must give notification is very clear when reading the section from the start:

1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:

In other words, this whole section applies only after notice has been given. If no notice is given, you can legally carry.

When the code says:

(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:

it doesn't mean that the church doesn't have to give notice, it simply means that the church may choose the method of notification.

 

[TMG]

Regardless of what the code says, I would pay most attention to section 6; the last sentence. A violation is only an 'Infraction'. In other words, it's the same as getting a speeding ticket. (not a criminal charge)

Referring to the Lehi shooting from yesterday, being armed would Not have saved that women’s life. BUT, had the husband decided to go after others, a person carrying may have been able to stop the guy.

I would weigh the risk of not carrying versus the cost of getting a ticket. I wouldn't carry open for all to see, but I would carry.
E

 

[divegeek]

I would weigh the risk of not carrying versus the cost of getting a ticket. I wouldn't carry open for all to see, but I would carry.

Odds are that you wouldn't get a ticket even if you got caught. Most likely, your bishop would just say "please don't do that again", and it would end there.

There's another aspect to consider as well, though, and one that applies even outside of Utah. That is the fact that the church leadership has directed members not to bring firearms to church. It's even documented in the bishop's handbook. "Concealed is concealed" doesn't apply to God, and while I'm sure he has no objection to us being armed, it's possible he'd dislike the lack of obedience.

I'm not saying you shouldn't carry, just that you should be sure that you've considered this aspect.

(The rest of this may strike non-LDS people as odd, but recall that we're talking about a church that believes firmly in individual, direct revelation)

To me, it seems like the real answer is that individual members should ask the Lord themselves what he wants them to do. Maybe he wants us to play the role of protector, and maybe he'd prefer we follow the example of the Anti-Nephi-Lehites (Alma 24). I suspect that the answer may well be different for different people -- and it may even change from day to day, per the promptings of the spirit.

FWIW, my personal answer is that I don't generally carry at church. If I happen to forget to take the gun off (hasn't happened but knowing me as I do, it eventually will), I won't sweat it too much, but I won't generally carry. That said, I definitely try to pay attention to the promptings of the spirit, and if I feel prompted to carry, I will.

 

[Paul]

I would weigh the risk of not carrying versus the cost of getting a ticket. I wouldn't carry open for all to see, but I would carry.

Odds are that you wouldn't get a ticket even if you got caught. Most likely, your bishop would just say "please don't do that again", and it would end there.

There's another aspect to consider as well, though, and one that applies even outside of Utah. That is the fact that the church leadership has directed members not to bring firearms to church. It's even documented in the bishop's handbook. "Concealed is concealed" doesn't apply to God, and while I'm sure he has no objection to us being armed, it's possible he'd dislike the lack of obedience.

I'm not saying you shouldn't carry, just that you should be sure that you've considered this aspect.

(The rest of this may strike non-LDS people as odd, but recall that we're talking about a church that believes firmly in individual, direct revelation)

To me, it seems like the real answer is that individual members should ask the Lord themselves what he wants them to do. Maybe he wants us to play the role of protector, and maybe he'd prefer we follow the example of the Anti-Nephi-Lehites (Alma 24). I suspect that the answer may well be different for different people -- and it may even change from day to day, per the promptings of the spirit.

FWIW, my personal answer is that I don't generally carry at church. If I happen to forget to take the gun off (hasn't happened but knowing me as I do, it eventually will), I won't sweat it too much, but I won't generally carry. That said, I definitely try to pay attention to the promptings of the spirit, and if I feel prompted to carry, I will.

Good post! Are you 100% positive there is an no guns in LDS church policy in the bishops handbook?

-PW

 

[divegeek]

Are you 100% positive there is an no guns in LDS church policy in the bishops handbook?

I found it in the handbook yesterday, but I didn't do more than glance at the actual text.

I was looking to find out if there was a stated policy on firearms for scouting activities, etc. There didn't appear to be, just the one brief section on firearms in church buildings. Since it was immediately clear it didn't apply to what I was looking for, and because I was in a hurry, I didn't read the section in detail. The gist, however, seemed to be "NO".

The handbook doesn't appear to be available on the lds.org web site, so I can't check it there. I'll look at it in more detail when I get a chance, probably on Sunday. I don't have a copy, but I can borrow one from a member of the bishopric easily enough.

 

[Paul]

Please let us know what you find.

-PW

 

[hamm]

I actually just searched in the Church Handbook of Instructions Book 1 and it doesn't mention guns or weapons. This book is only made available to bishops and stake presidents, etc., but I have a pdf copy I got off of some anti-Mormon site .

 

[divegeek]

I actually just searched in the Church Handbook of Instructions Book 1 and it doesn't mention guns or weapons. This book is only made available to bishops and stake presidents, etc., but I have a pdf copy I got off of some anti-Mormon site .

I Googled it, too, and found what was probably the same site you did. It's a 1998 edition. I imagine the bit about firearms was added around 2004, when the church distributed the statement banning firearms.

 

[knayrb]

What you are looking for is Handbook #1. This is reserved for administration like Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics. I have access to a shared copy in my Church assignment and will check tonight if there is anything in there about firearms. The handbook is for worldwide policies in all countries so I doubt there is anything specific.

The LDS Church does not make public Handbook #1 anymore because the Anti's like the Tanners mis-quote and interpret it for their own evil use. The only one you find on the internet is very old and way outdated. Even that is copywrited and prohibited from being published.

BTW - I have to agree somewhat with swillden. I have knowingly and deliberately carried during various Church functions. The YM Pres. and I are good friends and he knows that I carry. We collected over $1000 cash for sub-for-santa and were going out to purchase the gifts with the youth. The YM Pres. designated me as keeper of the funds and gave me a wink. I winked back. He knew what I had in my pocket. We also took the youth to Temple Square and had to walk a few blocks downtown. We started in the ward building and went from there. Guess what I had with me (and didn't tell a soul)?. My new assignment requires me to be alone in all the buildings in our Stake sometimes. I carry when doing that yet no one knows but me. I just don't tell people and don't make an issue of it. I don't carry during regular Sunday's block meetings though. Sometimes I carry and sometimes I don't. I do it when I "feel" like I should.

 

[Tarzan1888]

D&C 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Tarzan