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Bizarre situation

9502 Views 38 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  daveyG, 
C
About 4 years ago I had a situation occur. This was quite possibly the turning point for me to really want to get my CFP.

I was traveling with my wife and son from our house in Murray at the time, to my parents house in Idaho. We were headed up for a weekend visit and to get away from the busy city life. We were in our car, heading North on I-15. It was a Saturday, probably around noon. For some reason traffic was really heavy that day, almost as heavy as rush h our afternoon traffic.

Anyhow, we has just passed the 600 North overpass when I noticed a guy on a motorcycle behind me. We were traveling in the far left lane as we were passing traffic. I'd guess the average speed of traffic was around 60 MPH. We were probably going about 62 or 63 MPH. So we were passing traffic, but slowly. There was almost bumper to bumper traffic. A car ahead of me, so I couldn't speed up. Plenty of cars to my right, so I couldn't easily move over. At one point, I noticed a slot to my right. I turned on my blinker getting ready to move over. Just as I had started to slowly move over, a car shot out of the far right lane, into the middle lane spot I was going to take. By now, the guy on the motorcycle was quite upset. He kept giving me the one-finger salute from time to time. I wasn't going to cause any accidents on this guys behalf. Besides, if he got around me, he'd only have to deal with yet another slow moving vehicle.

We traveled about another half mile or so. I noticed another slot to my right. I again turned on my blinker and started to slide over. Suddenly the guy on the motorcycle shot over narrowly missing a car and he pulled up alongside me. He pulled up next to my wife's window and started yelling every obscenity known to man. Constantly giving us the finger again. I tried to ignore him as much as possible. I let off the gas and started coasting in an attempt to just have him go away. He also slowed and finally did the unthinkable. He pulled back his leather riding vest and there in his shoulder holster was a 1911 pistol. I distinctly remember this for some reason. It could have been a .22 for all I cared though. This guy was actually threatening my by brandishing his weapon. He even put his hand on it as if he were going to pull it out.

This went on for only about 1/8 mile or so. He finally gave up and shot directly across traffic again and took the 2300 North / Warm Springs Road exit just before crossing over Beck Street. To say I was scared was about accurate. To say my wife was scared would be the understatement of the year. I'm not certain if anyone else saw this guy showing off his weapon in such a manner or not. Because he never got in front of me, I was never able to get his license plate number. Not sure if anyone else on the freeway did or not. I didn't have a cell phone at the time either, so I was unable to call the police. By the time I would have gotten to a phone, he could have been long gone from the scene anyway.

I replay it in my mind from time to time. I didn't have my permit at the time, and thus no gun with me. And I keep thinking what I would have done if he would have actually pulled it out and pointed it at us. I undoubtedly would have swerved over into his lane in an effort to run him over. I was prepared to do that at the time he was threatening us. In fact, it had run through my mind about a million times ever since he got up along side of us and started yelling at us. I'd like to think I had justifiable reason if it would have come to that. If anyone knows otherwise, please tell me so. If I did have to run him over in self-defense, I'm not sure how the law would apply to this. But you can guarantee I'd rather be alive in a jail somewhere than 6-feet under because of this ******.

Now that I have my CFP, I know undoubtedly as well what my new choice would be if this situation were to ever happen again.

Cliffs: It's a long read, but worth it IMO. :lol:
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Jeff Johnson
hedonistic said:
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Yea, show me a gun forum member that is not subject to having quotes taken out of context, and I show you one that hasn't posted.
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Nevertheless, it seems good advice to me not to make any statements to anybody else, even on a forum where you believe yourself to be anonymous, to the effect that you intend to kill someone.

I've been taught that the mindset we should have is 'shoot to stop the threat', not 'shoot to kill'. Perhaps this is the difference in mindset between a soldier in a battlefield and a civilian on the street. Maybe you need to realize that you're no longer on a battlefield. Your legal liability is different now.
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Jeff Johnson said:
I've been taught that the mindset we should have is 'shoot to stop the threat', not 'shoot to kill'. Perhaps this is the difference in mindset between a soldier in a battlefield and a civilian on the street. Maybe you need to realize that you're no longer on a battlefield. Your legal liability is different now.
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I am not on a battlefield? Wow after just over year you think I would have caught on to that. People survive some amazing things still when I repeatedly discharge a fire arm into a persons body I fully expect it not to tickle, in fact in all probability they will die. When a taser handgun that fires multiple shots in excess of 100 feet and is as small even a full size service pistol I will gladly retire my pistols. An educated soldier rather wound most of the time, dead men dont talk and, dont need irradiate help on the battlefield.

When its time for the gun to go bang I have ceased caring about :puke: legal liability. The time for that is before and after not during. Know the law and use the law.
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Jeff Johnson
hedonistic said:
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When its time for the gun to go bang I have ceased caring about :puke: legal liability. The time for that is before and after not during. Know the law and use the law.
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One of the things we're talking about is statements you're making on a public forum before any such incident. What we're saying is that making statements like I will shoot to kill are unwise because they can be used after the event to prosecute you or hold you civilly liable, which could potentially ruin the rest of your life.

Maybe you shouldn't be off your meds?

EDIT: This last comment was uncalled for and broke forum rule #5 (which incidentally, I wrote):
5. No posts that use abusive or vulgar language, particularly personal attacks on members of this forum, are allowed. We can and certainly do disagree on issues, but it is expected that we can do so in a civil manner.
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I sincerely apologize for the remark. Ummm, I've also told the Posse that they shouldn't cut me any slack when I post something stupid like this.
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Jeff Johnson said:
Maybe you shouldn't be off your meds?
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Maybe you should you should have enough respect not to make a statement like that. I bet in person you lack the fortitude for such manners.
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bane
hedonistic,

I don't want to get into a turf war between anyone here. I'm not out to get you, buddy, or make you look like a fool. I didn't serve where you served, that's for sure, but our service is a common bond between us and I understand *SOME* (certainly not all!) of the trauma we go through over there. But, please, hear me out...

You got annoyed by Jeff's comment about "meds". Now, I certainly don't know if there is any truth to his comment or not -- I only know that he made it and that you seemed offended by it. But maybe you shouldn't have been -- you make some fairly offensive statements on this forum yourself and have said that you don't think people should be offended by them but that if they are that that is their problem not yours. Please, stop and think about what you are saying b/c you appear to be contradicting yourself.

I think the benefit of the doubt should be extended to Jeff and you should take his comment as a sincere (if not harsh, perhaps) comment to try and spur you to consider the things you are saying... after all, what we say on this forum is NOT private OR anonymous... and much of what has been said here and in another thread yesterday pushes the "family friendly" limits. Not to mention, as Jeff is pointing out, these types of comments could really come back to hurt you.

Personally, when I got home from my last deployment I went and got counseling for PTSD-related issues and addiction. I went to counseling for 9 months. They told me I wasn't done and that I needed more time, but I just couldn't continue any more. The counseling was great, initially, but eventually it became a weight in my life instead of a life-saving vest. I'm doing much better now. I honestly think all SM's coming back from the war should go to counseling for a while. It's good for the soul!

I hope you take this post in the light I meant it. I am merely trying to help.
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Jeff Johnson said:
I've been taught that the mindset we should have is 'shoot to stop the threat', not 'shoot to kill'.
Click to expand...
These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, "shooting to stop the threat" is likely to result in death, and "shooting to kill" always stops the threat. And isn't that the point of using a firearm for self-defense--to always stop the threat? You don't aim for the kneecaps and then wait around to see if that was enough to stop the threat.

We're talking about pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger here. No matter what words you use to describe that act, the reality of the situation is still pretty grim. It seems to me that hedonistic just used a choice of words that fit the reality.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I do understand that those of you arguing against hedonistic's choice of words are just playing devil's advocate. It just seemed a little harsh to me that so many were ganging up on one of their own, when it's really anti-gun people that you're worried about.
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XD_EE
bane said:
hedonistic,

I don't want to get into a turf war between anyone here. I'm not out to get you, buddy, or make you look like a fool. I didn't serve where you served, that's for sure, but our service is a common bond between us and I understand *SOME* (certainly not all!) of the trauma we go through over there. But, please, hear me out...

You got annoyed by Jeff's comment about "meds". Now, I certainly don't know if there is any truth to his comment or not -- I only know that he made it and that you seemed offended by it. But maybe you shouldn't have been -- you make some fairly offensive statements on this forum yourself and have said that you don't think people should be offended by them but that if they are that that is their problem not yours. Please, stop and think about what you are saying b/c you appear to be contradicting yourself.

I think the benefit of the doubt should be extended to Jeff and you should take his comment as a sincere (if not harsh, perhaps) comment to try and spur you to consider the things you are saying... after all, what we say on this forum is NOT private OR anonymous... and much of what has been said here and in another thread yesterday pushes the "family friendly" limits. Not to mention, as Jeff is pointing out, these types of comments could really come back to hurt you.
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:chill: :agree:
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gr8grandma
Udink said:
Edit: I just wanted to add that I do understand that those of you arguing against hedonistic's choice of words are just playing devil's advocate. It just seemed a little harsh to me that so many were ganging up on one of their own, when it's really anti-gun people that you're worried about.
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I may have a slight tendency to agree here, however I think that the overall purpose of a forum like this is to learn how to protect the freedoms to carry and to do so in a manner that will keep any ammunition ( so to speak) away from anti-gun advocates. United information / banter can be used to help us be better informed and "armed". I have contemplated this topic from the beginning until now and will continue to read as post hit this tread. I will however take what I read and make darn sure that I can defend myself if and when needed. I believe that my freedom to protect myself and my family is also assuring that I can keep my freedom (out of prison ) if I ever have to exercise my choice to shoot someone.
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bane said:
you make some fairly offensive statements on this forum yourself and have said that you don't think people should be offended by them but that if they are that that is their problem not yours. Please, stop and think about what you are saying b/c you appear to be contradicting yourself.
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Yes, I have made some generic comments that can be considered offensive, such as "My God is better than your God." Which to me was a joke pointing out what I feel is one of the supreme ironys of religion. I offended some people and I apologized for it, after making the comment I understood how offensive and hurtful it could be and, again I apologize for that. I have not how ever made any directly personal comments, ask yourself if you would have been offended if that comment where directed at you?

hedonistic said:
If that attitude or I offend you, I dont care. Find yourself a comic book character to protect the pretty little world in your mind and leave the real stuff to men like me.
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Well, I guess I have thats directed at an individual, and insulting.

hedonistic said:
Maybe you should you should have enough respect not to make a statement like that. I bet in person you lack the fortitude for such manners.
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I can also see how someone might feel this is a challenge a bit emasculating Truth be told most people are more well mannered and considerate in person lacking elements of face to face communication and the element of anonymity creates an environment where far more bickering happens than I believe would at the monthly meets. I hope we all realize this is just internet land and should not be taken too personally.

bane said:
I hope you take this post in the light I meant it. I am merely trying to help.
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Bane, I do take your comments in the light you meant them, I appreciate your concern and sincerity.

Udink said:
Jeff Johnson said:
I've been taught that the mindset we should have is 'shoot to stop the threat', not 'shoot to kill'.
Click to expand...
These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, "shooting to stop the threat" is likely to result in death, and "shooting to kill" always stops the threat. And isn't that the point of using a firearm for self-defense--to always stop the threat? You don't aim for the kneecaps and then wait around to see if that was enough to stop the threat.

We're talking about pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger here. No matter what words you use to describe that act, the reality of the situation is still pretty grim. It seems to me that hedonistic just used a choice of words that fit the reality.

Edit: I just wanted to add that I do understand that those of you arguing against hedonistic's choice of words are just playing devil's advocate. It just seemed a little harsh to me that so many were ganging up on one of their own, when it's really anti-gun people that you're worried about.
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Sorry, if I lack the prose of Shakespeare or your favorite romance novelist I'll look into flowery ways to describe the Mozambique drill.

Gang up all you like, debate is good for the mind, I forget where it comes from but, I believe it is about faith; (paraphrasing) defending your position has one of three out comes, you strengthen your position and resolve, you find elements of the other argument you agree with and you question yourself, or you change positions. In my thinking I buy a slightly more dialectic process but it works for me. The outcome defending the platform on which you stand is stiil thought, sometimes research but always, always, enlightenment.
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Jeff Johnson
Hedonistic, I will apologize for the insensitive remark that I ended my last post with. However, I will say that I'm quite as capable of being tactless in person as I am online ... maybe more so. That's my problem.

I do get the feeling that you can dish it out, but can't take it, which is mildly annoying.

Look, I appreciate your service to our country. I wasn't in your boots over there and can't know what you went through.

What I do sense here, though, is that you may have anger issues. What I get from some of your posts is troubling to me. If you ever do get into a self-defense shooting situation, don't you think that a prosecutor might be interested in what you have said on this forum? Do you presume that he can't find out about these posts? I believe that it is highly likely that he would find out. All he has to do is get a warrant and look at your computer. He will know immediately. The expression of an 'intent to kill' rather than an 'intent to stop the threat' would hurt you greatly if you had to defend your actions in court. If you think that you wouldn't care about that, just wait until you are looking at possible prison time, plus the civil actions that would arise against you. What many here have tried to do is explain what we've been taught, i.e. that what you say before, during or after a self-defense shooting situation can be held against you. It would be wisdom to learn that and protect yourself from the potential consequences of a rash tongue (or keyboard).

The purpose of a forum like this one is to learn from each other, but it seems that your interest might be more along the lines of picking fights. It's your life, but what you do as a gun-owner and CFP-holder reflects on all of us.
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Jeff Johnson
Udink said:
Jeff Johnson said:
I've been taught that the mindset we should have is 'shoot to stop the threat', not 'shoot to kill'.
Click to expand...
These are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
...
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Of course they're not mutually exclusive. However, a mindset that says I'm shooting to kill may substantially alter the outcome of a violent encounter. I was taught that as soon as the threat is no longer present, that I am no longer justified in shooting. If I don't keep that in mind or I have the mindset that I'm going to 'shoot to kill', I might achieve a different result than otherwise might happen. That could wind up putting me in prison, which would substantially ruin my life and deeply affect my family.

We need to understand the consequences of our words and actions. I posted words above that offended Hedonistic (and possibly others). That was less than wise. How much less wise is it to publicly say something that can be used against us in a court of law?
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G
Jeff Johnson said:
I do get the feeling that you can dish it out, but can't take it, which is mildly annoying.
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I dish as well as I take, however, that comment could be taken no other way than as a personal insult.

Jeff Johnson said:
What I do sense here, though, is that you may have anger issues. What I get from some of your posts is troubling to me.
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You are correct, I am seeking treatment at the VA it is becoming apparent I do have some anger management issues.

Jeff Johnson said:
The purpose of a forum like this one is to learn from each other, but it seems that your interest might be more along the lines of picking fights.
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Your right I am such an internet bully. :roll:

Jeff Johnson said:
It's your life, but what you do as a gun-owner and CFP-holder reflects on all of us.
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Just like my actions as a soldier reflect upon the entire army, and my whiteness reflects upon my entire race, and my gender reflects upon all men. There is an abundance of people at every gun show that have a far poorer reflection than I. I am so sure that antis are cruising this board and that I am the epitome of the antigun movement's rational behind bans and, confiscation.

My time in the justice system tells me that the prosecutor will interview my kindergarten teacher too.
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divegeek
Jeff Johnson said:
If you ever do get into a self-defense shooting situation, don't you think that a prosecutor might be interested in what you have said on this forum? Do you presume that he can't find out about these posts? I believe that it is highly likely that he would find out. All he has to do is get a warrant and look at your computer. He will know immediately. The expression of an 'intent to kill' rather than an 'intent to stop the threat' would hurt you greatly if you had to defend your actions in court.
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+1

Anything you write on the Internet is forever. Even if the original site gets taken down, it may have been cached or archived, and it can be found. If it's an isolated incident, when you were just having a bad day, it might be easy to explain away. If there is a consistent pattern of dozens of messages, spread over time, however...

I expect this to become a big issue for the next generation of politicians; it's already a big issue for young people looking for jobs, etc.

It may be that society will eventually accept that everyone has said stupid crap, but if it does it'll take at least two generations. Until then, your old words can come back to haunt you.
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XD_EE
Okay,

This hypothetical situation is based on the thread but it does not mean that I interpret the original posting to have occurred in this manner:

Say I'm driving down the freeway on my motorcycle (which I don't have). I come upon a car moving very slowly in the left lane. I am a little bit perturbed because I am trying desperately to get home to my wife who is in labor! I can't see what is ahead of the car because I have a limited view on my motorcycle. I honk and am visibly angered by my situation so I swing into the right lane to see if I can get ahead. As I am trying to get ahead of the slow car I look over at the man in the car. At the same time the wind blows my shirt open and my gun is showing on the left side (even though I'm not a lefty). The man in the car looks at me and thinks he saw me pull my shirt out of the way.

I sure hope the man in the car isn't hedonistic... :shock:
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xmirage2kx
I think people feel too safe on the internet. Just because you don't use your name doesn't mean you are safe. Every day you read about people getting fired and kicked out of school for pictures/comments made on places like myspace and even on fourms like these. I googled my SN and I got over 2100 hits!!! I am sure I do not remember every post I made out of that large of amount.
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C
wow, look what I started! :lol2:

I have a small hiatus and this is what happens with this thread. Can't we all just get along? :shades:
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B
Interesting story... thanks for sharing :D
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Jeff Johnson
cjj98xj said:
wow, look what I started! :lol2:

I have a small hiatus and this is what happens with this thread. Can't we all just get along? :shades:
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Yup. Got a tad heated. We're all human after all...
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D
"I bet I'd be quicker to on the trigger than most here. In the most likely self defense scenarios I'd be likely to empty the gun and access the damage while I reload. The realities of the litigious after math don't escape me. To many people are afraid to use force. Tickle fights and nice words don't stop violence and neither do what ifs and, worry about the consequences of preserving your right to life. "

Most "gunfights" end in an unclear situation, to be sorted out by the law....although i agree with this statement whole hearted we should train as much as possible. in a high stress situation your training will take over, but try to tell the LEO' s how many shots you fired and I bet that you will be hard pressed to find out that you do not actualy know. WHen your adrenaline rises your blood sugar drops "fact" ...the diference between staying alive and dying...protecting your family or not...depends on training..the history channel is now the war channel and much to my dismay..our children will be faster than we will!
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