[Paul]

I got thinking about this because I need to go pick up some Forest Service Maps. Can I carry a concealed firearm into the local Forest Service building? Its just one of those small Forest Service Buildings where they sell maps and books and get passing through tourists to stop.

I read through most of the laws I could find and couldn't really get a clear answer on this. In the Federal laws it basically says you can't carry into any Federal Building. But then I found places where it also said that these Federal Buildings had to be "secure" and have signs posted. I am pretty sure that your small town local tourist Forest Service Building is not a "secure" area and has no signs posted.

So what do you guys think?

-PW

 

[apollosmith]

Yes, you can carry there. As you mentioned, only SECURED federal facilities are restricted. The forest service may have a policy against guns, but it has no legal bearing. If you're made, you must leave if you're asked to leave. Beyond that, concealed is concealed.

National Parks (not forests) do have gun restrictions.

For the most part, in Utah, you can carry concealed almost everywhere but:
1. Secure federal facilities (court houses, prisons, etc.)
2. Secure portions of airports
3. LDS churches

 

[UTOC-45-44]

Yes, you can carry there. As you mentioned, only SECURED federal facilities are restricted. The forest service may have a policy against guns, but it has no legal bearing. If you're made, you must leave if you're asked to leave. Beyond that, concealed is concealed.

National Parks (not forests) do have gun restrictions.

For the most part, in Utah, you can carry concealed almost everywhere but:
1. Secure federal facilities (court houses, prisons, etc.)
2. Secure portions of airports
3. LDS churches

It's only an infraction to Carry in an LDS Church if caught/

 

[Sup3D]

It's only an infraction to Carry in an LDS Church if caught/

I've seen that and understand it is an infraction. Anyone know what the actual penalty is? Loss of permit? Fine? etc. I don't think in the law it actually says, but in practice what does it mean?

 

[apollosmith]

As far as I know, there is no real definition of what the penalty would be for an infraction. But, the law clearly states that your CFP cannot be denied, suspended, or revoked solely for a single conviction for an infraction.

 

[Cinhil]

You can carry in a court house. If they have a "rule" against carrying by law they must then provide secure lockers however, I have yet to see the legislature censure or fine the Third District Courthouse for this infraction. Signs must also be present at every entrance/exit.
You can carry in a Post Office, concealed as it is a lawful purpose to carry for self defense when you have a legal ccw.
You may not carry at an asylum or at a secure federal building, or in a prison however, all of these places Must by legislative decree provide a secure locker or check in area for your weapon.
Eventually we may get the legislature to create more strict rules/laws to fine those institutions which fail to do this--this would be Nice!
Also, you have no obligation to leave a public facility, ie a federal forestry building, if "made." The fact that it is an unsecure "Public" facility grants you the right to be there while concealed carrying.
If I am wrong on any point here, please correct me however, I am certain that this is the way it is.

 

[Paul]

THis is the first time I have ever heard you can carry in a Post Office. I thought this was a big NO-NO. Anywhere I can get more info on this. I go to the post office for work related issues probably once a week, and it would sure be nice to take my gun with me. Any links or any official places we can get more info on the Post Office issue from. At my local post office there is not a single "No guns" sign or anything else and it definetly isn't "secure."

I had wondered about carrying in a courthouse that is not "secure". THe courthouses up here in Logan are definetely not secure by the legal definition. I had figured you could probably make a good legal defense that you were carrying there legally because they aren't secure, but I'm not sure and would hate to be the case that further defines the law. If it is required that the location be secure then IMO you can go darn near anywhere you want. The only 2 locations I have ever been that have been secure are airports and the local jail (I have taken my scouts there on tours several times).

Any LEO out there to further clarify this.....?

-PW

 

[Car Knocker]

You may not carry at an asylum or at a secure federal building, or in a prison however, all of these places Must by legislative decree provide a secure locker or check in area for your weapon.

I don't believe that the Utah legislature can mandate that the feds provide lockers.

 

[apollosmith]

It is illegal to carry in a Post Office, unless carrying is for a lawful purpose. This has NOT been clarified legally to include CFP holders. It HAS been clarified to mean LEOs.

So, it may or may not be legal, the only way to find out is for someone to get nailed, go to court, pay an expensive lawyer, and get a judge to clarify, thus making relevant case law. I'm not too anxious to be the guinea pig. With that said, concealed is concealed.

Regarding Logan court houses - the last time I was in the courthouse in Logan, I had to go through a metal detector and a pat down. Maybe you're thinking of the Historic Court House on Main Street, this is not a secure location, but the one on 1st West definitely is.

 

[Cinhil]

Don you are right, the State cannot dictate to the Feds--though IMHO that is contrary to our constitution--But at the same time you would hope that perhaps they could work "with" the State and abide by the strictures the State has put on her citizens. This would be real nice and helpful when going about ones business and then out of necessity visiting a Fed site as one of many stops in a day.
Apollo, unfortunately packing.org is now gone. There was a very large and very informative discussion on law and the postings the Post Office uses when they do post on site that guns are not ok. These signs leave out some very important information within the context of the law, thus causing confusion everywhere. Their signs more or less just state that guns are not allowed. The law says that police, military in the course of their duty and several other statements concerning lawful purposes are mentioned. CCW holders are not included in that, but the "lawful purpose" clause should include such. The signs are deliberately vague and are used to frighten people from carrying on the premises. You can take rifles, pistols and other weapons and mail them. You can even insure them at the Post Office. This amongst many things fits into the "lawful purposes" clause which they conveniently leave out of their signs.

 

[James]

Posted: Wed 10 Oct 2007 7:02 am Post subject: Can I carry in a US Forest Service Building

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got thinking about this because I need to go pick up some Forest Service Maps. Can I carry a concealed firearm into the local Forest Service building? Its just one of those small Forest Service Buildings where they sell maps and books and get passing through tourists to stop.

Interesting you brought this up. I recently went to the Forest Service Building in Logan to get a map. I too was unsure so I left my piece in the car. When inside, I asked the attendendant if it was legal to carry in the building. She didn't have an answer, just said that she didn't know, but would prefer that I didn't carry inside.

Apparently, even the federal employees are not very well versed on the law. I am thinking it would be legal or surely they would have had some definitive instructions on the subject?

I didn't see any signs.

 

[Strategic Tactical]

I just emailed one of our students who is a Forest Service LEO. I'll let you know what I find out .

 

[Strategic Tactical]

Ok I just got the email reply from him.... This is what is said:

"Just talked with the GSA Security. Firearms are not alowed in any Federal
Building unless you are a law enforcement officer. Apparently Federal law
trumps State law in this case."

 

[Tarzan1888]

Ok I just got the email reply from him.... This is what is said:

"Just talked with the GSA Security. Firearms are not alowed in any Federal
Building unless you are a law enforcement officer. Apparently Federal law
trumps State law in this case."

You have to remember that there is a difference between policy and law.

Tarzan

 

[Paul]

As I have looked into this a bit more I think that the law says you can't carry in any Federal building. However, who the freak is ever going to know or care if you carry into a Forest Service building.....Not sure what would happen if caught, but the more I carry I am absolutely convinced you would have to do something pretty careless to ever be made. Get a good holster, conceal well and go whereever you personally feel comfortable. The chance of being made are extremelly low in my opinion.

-PW

 

[apollosmith]

It IS illegal to carry in any federal facility, but only if a No Guns notice is "posted conspicuously at each public entrance."

This is defined in the last two page of the Gun Control Act.

But even if posted, it's not absolutely clear. The Act allows...

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

Does "other lawful purposes" include those that have a lawfully authorized CFP??? By the way, this is the exact phrase that makes Post Office carry possibly legal.

This document from the BCI web site states that it is only illegal in SECURE portions of federal facilities, meaning that unless you have to go through a metal detector, you're good to go.

In short, some things are not very clear. But this much is fact:

- If it's not "conspicuously posted", you can carry legally.
- If it is "conspicuously posted", it MIGHT be illegal.
- If it's secure, then it's definitely illegal.

If I remember, I'll check the Forest Service building a block from my work and see if there are signs.

 

[UtahCFP]

Federal Parks are also on the no-no list, and I don't think there is a "secured area" requirement for them.

The Federal law that I believe is relevant here is:

TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal
facilities

-STATUTE-
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than 1 year, or both.

. . .

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful
purposes.

(http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt)

- - - -

I am not a lawyer and I don't even play one on the Internet.

- Dave

 

[Jeff Johnson]

If by Federal Parks, you mean National Parks, then correct. We cannot carry there. A firearm has to be unloaded and locked up, such as in a trunk.

 

[apollosmith]

I checked the Forest Service building here in Logan on my way to work today. There are NO signs anywhere. So, it's perfectly legal to carry there. I even stepped inside for a second just to exercise my right to do so.