[thetinman]

I wanted to obtain my permit but I had a question about the fingerprinting aspect of obtaining one. I assume your prints are submitted to AFIS when you apply for your permit. I have already been fingerprinted by the INS because I am a permanent resident alien. I work for the federal government and I have also been fingerprinted for my job. Do you think my prints are already on file or in AFIS? Can they use the ones on file for my permit so I don't have to submit the again? If they are not, I don't know whether I want to apply for a permit.

 

[Jeff Johnson]

Welcome to the forum!

You can call BCI and ask the question, or if Clark Aposhian sees this thread, he would know (he teaches the CFP class). I suspect that the answer is that you need to get the fingerprints done regardless. This is what it says on the BCI website:

What Must Accompany the Application?
1. A Photocopy of your Driver License

2. Photograph. One recent color photograph of passport quality. *Photos may be taken at BCI.

3. Fingerprint Card. One fingerprint card. Must be filled out completely. Writing and prints must be legible. Fingerprint should be taken by a trained fingerprint technician. Fingerprint cards that are not legible will be returned to the applicant and will cause a delay in processing the application.

*Fingerprint services are available from BCI or may be offered through your local law enforcement agency. There are private businesses that also offer this service. Check in your local phone directory. Photos and fingerprints may be obtained at BCI (3888 W 5400 S, Taylorsville, UT. The cost is $10.00 for 1 photo and $10.00 for up to 3 fingerprint cards.

It's only ten bucks to get your fingerprints done at BCI. If you decide not to get the CFP because of the inconvenience of getting your prints done again, then it must not be a very high priority. To me, the right to be ready for self-defense comes first.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Car Knocker]

"The Western Identification Network, Inc. (WIN) was formed in May 1988 to facilitate the purchase of a multi-state AFIS System. In June 1989, the funding was appropriated by legislatures in Alaska, California, Idaho, Oregon, Nevada, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming to create the first multi-state AFIS network. "

"The Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), the Postal Inspection Service and the Secret Service all joined WIN and became operational in 1991. The Internal Revenue Service became operational in 1993. The Federal Bureau of Investigation became operational in September 1997 and the Drug Enforcement Administration became operational in 1998."

http://www.winid.org/winid/who/

It appears that the prints you had taken by INS and your federal employer are accessible to the WIN network and AFIS.

 

[thetinman]

It appears that the prints you had taken by INS and your federal employer are accessible to the WIN network and AFIS.

I guess I will get my permit then. Now it will be more convenient to buy guns and I won't have to complete a background check every time. Plus I can save $7.50 on every purchase. Sounds like a small amount, but it makes a difference. I am certain they won't accept the prints that I already have on file. Too much bureaucracy in my opinion. On the other hand, if I am going to be somewhere where there is a high risk of danger, I can carry a gun legally. Without a permit, carrying a loaded gun is a Class B misdemeanor, according to Utah Criminal Code 76-10-505. I always though carrying a loaded gun without a permit was a class A misdemeanor and an unloaded one was a class B misdemeanor. Utah Code Section 76-10-502(2) states a loaded handgun is one that has a round in the chamber or in an attached magazine. What about if somebody is carrying an unloaded gun without a magazine but has the magazine in his/her pocket? Can somebody clarify this?

Who are some good CCW instructors in the Salt Lake area? I am not looking to spend $200 for some tactical training course. I was thinking of Get Some Guns in Midvale, who charge $20 for the course and you have to go get the fingerprints and passport photos done yourself. Also, Rangemasters in Springville has a course for $40 including prints and photos, but they are kind of far away. It's too bad you can't carry without a permit, but in Utah it would be legally like driving a car without insurance.

 

[tapehoser]

Clark Aposhian has offered a $25 discount to UCC members in the past who take his course.

Total out of pocket = $50.

His course (at ImpactGuns on 4700 South and, like, 4200 West) includes EVERYTHING. He'll teach you the course, give you all necessary documentation and fingerprinting - heck - he even includes a stamped envelope. Then, afterwards, you get your weapon of choice and some ammo to go practice shooting on the range.

The only thing you have to do when you leave that course is to find a Notary Public to watch you sign your application. Then you send it in and 4 weeks later, you have permit in hand!!!

Best price and course I've ever seen!

 

[Jeff Johnson]

Looks like you know how to look up law references online. Here's some help ... I've posted a bunch of links to Utah and Federal laws. These are links that I've collected over time.

The question of what constitutes a loaded gun is defined in:

U.C.A. 76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

The way I interpret this is, if it's an autoloader, there has to be a round chambered for the gun to be loaded. A charged magazine, but an empty chamber is unloaded. If it's a revolver, if there is an unexpended round under the hammer, it is deemed loaded. Also if it is a double-action revolver and there is an unexpended round in the next chamber to rotate in, it is deemed loaded. If you can operate any mechanism once to fire the revolver, it is loaded.

BTW, I am not a lawyer.

 

[thetinman]

It looks like based on Utah Code Section 76-10-504(1)(b), carrying a loaded gun without a permit is a class A misdemeanor and carrying an unloaded one is a class B misdemeanor. Looks like the law is ambigous regarding this, or at least confusing. I am not a lawyer so I do not know exactly. According to UCA 76-10-502(2), a gun without a round in the chamber but with rounds in the magazine I guess would not be loaded because you have to rack the slide and pull the trigger to fire the gun. I did not read the law exactly. You would need a lawyer to tell you the concrete version of things.