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I have a question and I dont know how to ask it,So here it goes. If you are in a situation where you have to pullout your gun, How would you inform the people around you that you are not part of the problem and you are there to solve the problem? Let me rephrase this question, The Trolley Square shooting, If you were there and that shooter came around the corner and you were the one that stopped him, how would you inform everyone that you are not with the shooter? Sorry for the long question .
 

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Hopefully your demeanor and actions would say that for you. In a public space I think you would be morally obligated to give challenge commands such as "Stop!" "Put the gun down!" or "Stop or I'll shoot!" to anyone with a drawn firearm. In a case like this where the gunman had killed multiple people you may be able to bypass this depending on your situation. The idea is that anyone else with a firearm would offer the same challenge questions to you as well - rather than just shooting you. This would allow you an opportunity to explain that you are a CFP holder trying to help innocent lives, then you two could both go after the bad guy.

This is also be an situation where it would be good to talk as much as you can safely. Telling people to get down, stay calm, move toward exits, don't worry, "I'm a good guy", call 911, etc. This type of communication tells people that you are there to help, not harm.

While on the topic, this is also a place where a CFP badge would be useful. Many people rant on about how CFP badges are bad and make you look like a wannabe cop. In this situation it offers instant identification (even if you are confused with a cop, that's better than being confused with the bad guy) and trust (usually). You wouldn't go around saying you are a cop obviously, but just having something like that visible would help diffuse a potentially dangerous situation between you and another armed individual.
 

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NOT pointing the gun at the innocents around you would be a good first step... provided you generally know where the shooter is and know he's not in your immediate vicinity, merely holding the firearm pointed upwards would be a great body-language form of communicating, "I'm not here to shoot anyone" (except the BG, of course). Also, you moving towards the shooter and placing your fellow citizens between you and the threat while motioning with your other hand to get back behind you would also be good body language.

As the common saying goes, "if you look like you know what you are doing, most people will believe you do"... soooo, moving and communicating tactically will say a lot without you needing to say much of anything.

Dave's right about your demeanor/actions... I would also throw in there, your dress/grooming. Of course, you can wear what you want and carry legally... but what you choose to wear and how you choose to groom will say a lot about you in those few seconds when little else can. As powerplaynow said, "don't wear a trench coat". Wrong or right, if you choose to adorn yourself with full-sleeve tats, black clothes, a billion piercings, funky hair, etc, it *WILL* affect people's perception of you... especially in those crucial seconds when they have so little else to go on. Being fairly clean-cut (which you can do even if you've already done the tats) will cause them to instantly see you as a potential good guy.
 

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A friend that I work with told me that when the off duty cop went to go confront the shooter at Trolley Square he had his wife call the police and describe her husband to the dispatch so that when the cops showed up they would know what the good guy looks like. I don't know if this was 100% accurate but I think it’s an important thing to consider when going into a situation. I know I don’t want to get shot/beat down when the cops get there because they think I was part of the problem.
I also agree with the other comments above…..if you make yourself look and sound like a good guy, generally that is what people with think you are. :D
 

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The innocent will be running for cover.

Your demeanor will tell those who wish to help that you are one of them.

I for one would be yelling PERMIT HOLDER....PERMIT HOLDER.....and if I saw any uniformed officers, I would lay my weapon on the ground....stay behind cover and identify myself and indicate where the bad guy is.

Tarzan
 

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GeneticsDave said:
While on the topic, this is also a place where a CFP badge would be useful. Many people rant on about how CFP badges are bad and make you look like a wannabe cop. In this situation it offers instant identification (even if you are confused with a cop, that's better than being confused with the bad guy) and trust (usually). You wouldn't go around saying you are a cop obviously, but just having something like that visible would help diffuse a potentially dangerous situation between you and another armed individual.
Wow, I haven't been around the board for a while, but this is one of the worst ideas that I have heard in quite a while. Why would you want to take on the responsibility to protect everyone by wearing a badge and impersonating a person of authority. Just the liability alone should be enough to make us all cringe. We already have the ability and right to defend ourselves and those that we choose to protect, and adding a badge to the mix only adds liablity that we don't need. To each their own....but I don't see any positives with the badge theory.
 

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Tacomatose said:
Just the liability alone should be enough to make us all cringe.
I hadn't thought of the liability issue... that's a good point though!

Fellow Citizen: Your Honor, I followed this man's gestures and orders, thinking by the police-looking badge that he was holding up that he was an officer of the law -- by following his advice, I ultimately was put into a position that got me shot by the criminal stalking around our area. If I had realized this man was not an officer of the law, I would have acted differently and avoided getting shot by the criminal. Thus, my getting shot is a direct result of this man making me think he was a police officer by appearing to have authority of the situation via the display of his badge.

Of course, I have no idea how such an argument would ACTUALLY hold up in court -- but I can certainly see someone arguing it.
 

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Tacomatose said:
Wow, I haven't been around the board for a while, but this is one of the worst ideas that I have heard in quite a while. Why would you want to take on the responsibility to protect everyone by wearing a badge and impersonating a person of authority. Just the liability alone should be enough to make us all cringe. We already have the ability and right to defend ourselves and those that we choose to protect, and adding a badge to the mix only adds liablity that we don't need. To each their own....but I don't see any positives with the badge theory.
I know you don't like badges, just come out and say that. They have their place, period.

Just because you have a badge doesn't mean you are law enforcement. You could be a fireman, EMT, paramedic, health inspector, permit holder, etc. The badge is only a form of quick identification, not authority. The authority comes from the agency that issued the identification, and the business that issued mine has none. Like I said, I would not identify myself as an officer, but also, being mistaken for an officer is better than being mistaken for a bad guy.

Your liability argument doesn't hold any weight. If people mistake you for something you are not, that misperception is theirs. As long as you do not identify yourself as an officer with words, writing or flashing lights you cannot be charged with impersonating an officer.

I don't advocate that people get badges. Yes, I have one. As I have stated many times before on this board, I do not wear it, I have it in case I need to provide quick identification for situations where my life may be in danger.
 

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I don't like the badge idea, just because it seems so misleading, but the liability vs. being-mistaken-for-an-officer-is-a-benefit argument is a fun one to watch :popcorn:

--Geoff
 

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I agree with some of the other post. The way you act, carry yourself, personal appearance and to me your coolness under stress or fire. When the police show up do what they say, do not argue with them. But above all just stay cool, sometimes it is hard but try.
 

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I just threw out the idea of a badge to show where one could be properly used. If you don't want one or see the need, don't get one.
 

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Personally, and no offense Dave, I think the badge is a horrifically bad idea. I would imagine that the first thing any LEO is gonna think when he sees that badge is "This guy is a serious wannabe." and then might start to wonder what the motivation behind the badge is. LEOs may start running through BG scenarios regarding you and your badge.

Personally I wouldn't consider one.

Actions speak louder than badges, I hope.
 

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I don't want to hijack this thread, but I don't understand your post. The use of the badge is to get people to stop and think before they shoot me. It's an instant identification, when words may not be audible or understandable. I would never wear one, I don't even want to be mistaken for law enforcement, but then the situation requires; a form of ID along with my actions would hopefully prevent another "good guy" from shooting me.

To reply to your post:
would imagine that the first thing any LEO is gonna think when he sees that badge is "This guy is a serious wannabe."
At least he would stop and think, I really don't care what his opinion is of me, as long as I am alive.

might start to wonder what the motivation behind the badge is
As I said, quick identification as a "good guy".

LEOs may start running through BG scenarios regarding you and your badge.
I don't really understand what this means or what you are thinking about.

Actions speak louder than badges, I hope.
Well, hopefully my actions and badge would speak louder than either would alone.
 

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LEOs may start running through BG scenarios regarding you and your badge.
I don't really understand what this means or what you are thinking about.
I'm thinking I've read of plenty of incidents where Bad Guys flash badges in order to gain their victim's trust. I think LEO's have heard of, or experienced incidents like that too. I'm thinking of a story that happened in Utah not too many years ago, where some guy was arrested for impersonating an officer. I think he went so far as to trick his car out with lights, etc. I can't remember the specifics. Maybe someone else does.
 

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I understand that if you are using a badge in a normal situation. In a shooting, I believe that is a different story. As long as it buys me enough time to not be shot by an over-zealous officer, I will continue to carry it. I respect the view that it is could be used as misidentification, no contest there. What I am saying is that in the situation I would use it, misidentification is the last of my concerns, staying alive takes precedence. I'm going to stop discussing this, hopefully the thread will go back to it's original line of thought.

:hijack: [/hijack]
 

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GeneticsDave said:
I understand that if you are using a badge in a normal situation. In a shooting, I believe that is a different story. As long as it buys me enough time to not be shot by an over-zealous officer, I will continue to carry it. I respect the view that it is could be used as misidentification, no contest there. What I am saying is that in the situation I would use it, misidentification is the last of my concerns, staying alive takes precedence. I'm going to stop discussing this, hopefully the thread will go back to it's original line of thought.
I follow what you are saying Dave and I feel that I am on the fence on this one only because not everyone has one- I have never seen one , a CC Badge, but lets say that one would be issued with your permit and it became a requirement to show this plus a card that is issued today. Now with this said I am also saying that the badge would have a unique identifier too that would be the same as your permit today, so it would be traceable. And with this hypothectical thought, the state would require all agencies to acknowledge this too as they currently do with our photo issued card. Now if this hypothectical situation happen and personally I believe that this could be a good thing, but it would have to be all or none, not just an option.

Here is why I think this could be good and it would be for one main reason is that from a distance I probably could make it out better than a white card. Yep, some of you are already thinking 'well the BG could go to Walmart and by a toy one' they can already today and impersonate a cop if they really wanted to.

So with this said - back to the hypothectical - What do you say?
 

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I think that's an interesting idea. I like that you are using your imagination. Of course, I don't see that happening - since we are not a part of some "agency" (FBI, CIA, etc.).

I'm more of the opinion that we shouldn't even need the permit in the first place, let alone a badge to show that we can indeed be carrying a weapon. My main reason for carrying it is to keep me from getting shot. No offense to any LEOs out there, but I don't have a lot of faith that they wouldn't 'accidentally' shoot the first MWAG they saw when responding to a call like that of Trolley Square. When the SWAT team rushes in with their SBRs ready to go, I want them to think twice before putting two in my chest - I'm a good guy.
 

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I don't think the badge discussion is a hijack, I think it fits right in with the original question. BTW, I personally think a badge is a horrible idea and I have stated that before. I had never thought about the liability arguement but I can definetely see that having some potential for a real problem. So to answer the original question, here's what I would do:

1. I only point my gun at a threat! If I am not engaging a threat, my gun is pointed at the ground OR still in my holster. I refuse to occupy one of my 2 hands in waving around a badge. Both hands are going to be firmly holding my gun or doing other tasks, the most likely of which is holding my cell phone to my ear. The last thing I want is to be fumbling around with a badge, that honestly probably won't even be noticed. Everyone is going to be looking at my gun, not the badge.
2. If I actually point my gun at a threat, 1 of 2 things are going to happen.
A. I shoot. If this happens, I shoot until the threat is stopped. After the shooting ends, my gun goes back pointing at the ground. Depending on the outcome of situation, I may even holster my gun at this point. Once the threat is stopped, I don't need the gun out or pointing at anything. I may even blend into the crowd. Again, I only point my gun at a threat and once the threat is eliminated, there is no need to be pointing my gun at anything other than the ground. A gun pointed at the ground is not an immediate threat to the cops.
B. Hopefully, I don't have to shoot. The BG drops his gun and surrenders. If this happens, I am NOT likely to draw down. I will most likely keep my gun pointed at the BG. I will be yelling for help at the top of my lungs. If I am yelling something along the lines of "Please help me. I have the shooter. Help Please. Help Please. Please Help me. HELP, HELP, HELP. I am a concealed firearm permit holder." I am not going to stop yelling until the cops show up. You can bet also, that I will be yelling loud enough that the police will hear me long before they see me. The second a cop shows up, I do EXACTLY what they tell me. By this point you are probably going to have help anyway. I bet someone will respond to your calls and actually help you. You may even be able to holster your gun at some point. Have the help that shows up, call the police and tell them what is going on. Have the help, watch the corners for police and tell the police you are the good guy. Lots of ways you can utilize the help that will most likely show up. Use them to help you. Don't stop yelling! And again, my other hand is going to be holding my cell phone, not a badge.

A few other points. As stupid as it sounds the point about don't be wearing a trench coat is valid. People, including the police, make judgements simply by the way a person looks. Even more important in this situation, is the body language and the way a person handles themselves. I think you would easily be able to tell the difference between a BG and a concealed permit holder with a gun. I also trust the police enough to not really worry about them shooting until they are positive they are engaging a threat. A guy holding a gun pointed at the ground is not a threat to the police yet. A guy pointing a gun at another person is not a threat to the police yet. I am absolutely amazed at the restraint the police show. I also think the idea of having someone on the phone with the police describing YOU as a GOOD GUY is perfect. Use any help you can get. If you don't have any help, instead of holding a badge, I'm going to be holding my cell phone against my ear, talking to the police already. The second the cops show up do EXACTLY what they say with no hesitation. I don't think the cops are going to come in guns blazing. They are trained to assess situations and I trust them to do their job. I doubt any undercover, non-uniformed cop is goint to be waiving around his badge in an active shooter situation.....why would I?

I know someone is going to say, "What if there is more than 1 shooter. Your yelling is just going to attract their attention and your going to get yourself shot." That may be true, but I'll take my chances. I think being aware of your situation and surroundings will give you a much bigger advantage than anything else.

Also, more important to me. I have stated this before also. It is NOT my job to protect everyone around me. I don't want that responsibility. I carry a gun to protect myself and my family. I will not go hunting a threat. I will be getting out of dodge as quickly as possible. I am not going to insert myself into a position where I become a target if I can avoid it. I carry to protect myself and my family. I'm never going to go looking for a fight. If it comes knocking on my door and can't be avoided, I will not back down or rely on hope. But I for one will not go looking for the fight.

Maybe my other problem with a badge, is I just plain don't need another thing to pack around every day. I already carry enough crap, I don't need more. LOL.
 
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