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althor said:
LDS House of Worship:

I don't know if this question has already been discussed, but is an LDS church a house of worship during a wedding reception on a Friday night? How about during an Eagle Scout court of honor on Tuesday? What if ARUP is doing a blood drive on a weekday afternoon? How about voting day... it seems to me that polling locations were off limits at one time... are they still?
D&C 58: 26
For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

As I said above;

Tarzan1888 said:
]Posted: Sun 04 Nov 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: Two conflicting laws

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden they were First told to Multiply and Replenish the Earth and Second they were told to Not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

They had to have a choice and they made the right one.

We have First been told that if we do not provide for our own we are worse than an infidel. Providing for our own includes providing for their safety. 1 Timothy 5:8

Second we were told that it would be an infraction if we carried in LDS Churches in Utah.

Now we also have a choice. Let us chose wisely.

Tarzan
Tarzan
 

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althor said:
LDS House of Worship:

I don't know if this question has already been discussed, but is an LDS church a house of worship during a wedding reception on a Friday night? How about during an Eagle Scout court of honor on Tuesday? What if ARUP is doing a blood drive on a weekday afternoon? How about voting day... it seems to me that polling locations were off limits at one time... are they still?
I don't have time to go get the law and cite it right now... however, if I'm not mistaken, "regular worship services" have to be occurring at the time. I could be wrong, though -- someone will chime in and correct me soon if I am.
 

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FM16 said:
Carrying a firearm in an LDS church is an infraction....at any time unless you are a law enforcement officer.
I looked up the law and found the definition I was alluding to in my previous post (I was mistaken in my previous post, as evidenced here):

"House of worship" means a church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other building set apart primarily for the purpose of worship in which religious services are held and the main body of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with its primary purpose
 

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althor said:
How about voting day... it seems to me that polling locations were off limits at one time... are they still?
It is legal to carry to a voting location.
 

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hamm said:
althor said:
How about voting day... it seems to me that polling locations were off limits at one time... are they still?
It is legal to carry to a voting location.
Well, that was the question.

My memory is not clear on this as I'm trying to remember 11 years back when I first got my permit. It seems that I read in the code that it was not legal to carry a firearm to a political gathering or a polling location. There doesn't seem to be any prohibition now, and frankly I'm beginning to question what I thought I read back then.

Does anybody know a way to access previous versions of the code online so as to compare changes to the law?
 

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bane said:
FM16 said:
Carrying a firearm in an LDS church is an infraction....at any time unless you are a law enforcement officer.
I looked up the law and found the definition I was alluding to in my previous post (I was mistaken in my previous post, as evidenced here):

"House of worship" means a church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other building set apart primarily for the purpose of worship in which religious services are held and the main body of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with its primary purpose
Well I don't know... it seems vague enough to me. Do you read it 'primarily for worship' AND 'religious services are being held' AND 'not put to any other use'? If so then Thursday night at the scout's 'Pack' meeting seems OK.

And Tarzan, I get what you're saying, but I'd just like to know and be able to make the completely informed decision.
 

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althor said:
And Tarzan, I get what you're saying, but I'd just like to know and be able to make the completely informed decistion.
I know, but there comes a time in each of our lives when we need to let go of our mother's hand and take that first step.

I am afraid that you have got all the answer you are going to get.

Tarzan
 

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althor said:
bane said:
"House of worship" means a church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other building set apart primarily for the purpose of worship in which religious services are held and the main body of which is kept for that use and not put to any other use inconsistent with its primary purpose
Well I don't know... it seems vague enough to me. Do you read it 'primarily for worship' AND 'religious services are being held' AND 'not put to any other use'? If so then Thursday night at the scout's 'Pack' meeting seems OK.
Well, I'm not sure it needs to be read quite so carefully... if I simplified it by taking out the multiple terms for 'church', simplifying the phrases that are not so common in every-day-speak, and removing some of the almost-redundant phrases, I get this:

A "house of worship" is a building where the majority of the building is primarily only used for religious services and not used for any purpose other than worship and worship-related activities; however, a minority of the building may be occasionally used for other purposes.
I think if you read the code cited above, one or two words at a time and then compare that to my reworded one, and then go back and read the two side-by-side as a whole piece you will find they agree. Thus, a Church can be used for other functions from time-to-time and still be considered a "House of Worship" so long as the MAJORITY of the building is never used for activities not related to worship. In the case of LDS Churches, they seem to fit the definition perfectly (surprise, surprise) -- while certain more "lively" Churches, the types who rent out their Church for parties on Friday night, would not constitute "houses of worship".
 

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bane said:
A "house of worship" is a building where the majority of the building is primarily only used for religious services and not used for any purpose other than worship and worship-related activities; however, a minority of the building may be occasionally used for other purposes.
I think the phrase "worship-related activities" is vague enough that it could mean scouting programs, weddings and just about any other activity that Mormons do.

Guess it's just completely off limits for me from now on.
 

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Oh, but don't confuse *MY* terms with those that *THE LAW* actually uses! The term "worship-related activity" was just a term I invented to circumscribe the whole worship idea. But it's not one used in the law... the excerpt that the law discusses regarding this is:

the purpose of worship in which religious services are held
I think most people would say that things like Sacrament and Sunday-School Lessons are "religious services" but would not say that things like a Boy Scout Meeting or a community dinner are "religious services" since the FOCUS of those 2 events is not to worship. Nevertheless, I think LDS Churches are indeed off-limits at all times b/c they fit the definition of "houses of worship" since the majority of the building is used exclusively for worship "religious services" and not put to any other use (even if a smaller portion of the building is put to other uses).
 

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I think people should stop getting caught up in all these definitions & remember the fact that BCI says if the church has posted it, announced it or sent a letter stating that firearms aren't alllowed, then they aren't. period. I can't say whether you will lose your permit if caught but can't say if you won't either.
 

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Yeah, to some extent I agree with you... sometimes these discussions can seem a bit "nit-picky"... when I get tired of them, I just stop talking and reading about them for a while -- on the other hand, to just accept what some organizational body says that the law says does a couple of things:

1) Leaves us uneducated -- if we don't understand exactly what the law says, what it doesn't, and why, we are left operating on an explanation that someone else gave about the law and might assume we know what the law means in a slightly different situation and might therefore unwittingly commit a crime (or, unwittingly fail to secure a right we thought we didn't have)

2) Leaves us powerless -- if we merely accept what an organization says that the law says, then we really might as well not have laws and just go off of what different authoritative bodies tell us we have to do. But the fact is that authorities do commit errors all of the time and unwittingly break the law themselves frequently. By them telling us what the law says, and then by us reading the law to understand it and verify it says what they say it says, promotes our system of checks and balances; it keeps us law-abiding, and keeps them honest.

A good example applied to this discussion is that ANY church can apply to BCI under this law and I'm sure BCI doesn't go out to check their church out to make sure it complies with the law -- certainly BCI just lists their name on the site. And if you weren't thinking about the issue yourself and went to one of the community churches that throw regular parties inside the main body of their church you would THINK you couldn't go there armed. If you actually read the law, however, you could approach the religious leader and show him/her that they aren't in compliance with it and try and change things.
 

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FM16 said:
I think people should stop getting caught up in all these definitions & remember the fact that BCI says if the church has posted it, announced it or sent a letter stating that firearms aren't alllowed, then they aren't. period. I can't say whether you will lose your permit if caught but can't say if you won't either.
As to whether or not you will lose your permit, please see the following statute:

  • U.C.A. 53-5-704. Division duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Certification for concealed firearms instructor -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal procedure[/*]
...
(b) The division may not deny, suspend, or revoke a concealed firearm permit solely for a single conviction for an infraction violation of Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons.
...
This prohibits BCI from suspending or revoking a CFP because of a single conviction of an infraction of weapons laws. However, this implies that BCI can indeed suspend or revoke a CFP on a second conviction for such an infraction.
 
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