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Conceal law & Churches

17K views 53 replies 19 participants last post by  Jeff Johnson 
#1 ·
For those who are unaware, last year the LDS Church & other groups banded together to form a new law which restricts carrying a weapon in a church. Anyone who has ever had to walk (in-other -words, their only means of transport) through a undesirable neighborhood, would be a person who would want every means available for their defense. This law, unlike the rest of the conceal laws of the state does not allow for them to have to provide a locker or other secure place for storage while attending services. What can that poor individual do? Kind of like a rock & a hard place. I feel that they should be forced to provide a place to store a weapon while attending church functions. If they do not think this feasable, then an individual should be able to obtain a letter of "exception to the rule," from their Bishop or Parish Priest so that they may be safe.
As many may know, the Lds Churches stance seems a little odd considering that they have always promoted weapons as being something one should have for protection, along with food storage. They even insisted that church members have at least one rifle and a hand gun if possible for each family traveling west. Kind of seems like a 180 to me.
Anyhow, with the law written as it is now, just like at the Third District Court, the LDS Church has assumed role of protector over all parishioners. This means that if you are assaulted, mugged or murdered on your way to or from, and while at church--they are responsible & may be sued for failure to protect you.
All this being said, I am LDS & I disagree with this law which the church so quickly pushed through the Utah Legislature. Why should they not be forced to comply with the other arms statutes which specifically state what a secure facility is & that a locker be provided for secure storage while on their premesis?
Now that I have got the ball rolling--comments anyone?
 
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#52 ·
I think people should stop getting caught up in all these definitions & remember the fact that BCI says if the church has posted it, announced it or sent a letter stating that firearms aren't alllowed, then they aren't. period. I can't say whether you will lose your permit if caught but can't say if you won't either.
 
#53 ·
Yeah, to some extent I agree with you... sometimes these discussions can seem a bit "nit-picky"... when I get tired of them, I just stop talking and reading about them for a while -- on the other hand, to just accept what some organizational body says that the law says does a couple of things:

1) Leaves us uneducated -- if we don't understand exactly what the law says, what it doesn't, and why, we are left operating on an explanation that someone else gave about the law and might assume we know what the law means in a slightly different situation and might therefore unwittingly commit a crime (or, unwittingly fail to secure a right we thought we didn't have)

2) Leaves us powerless -- if we merely accept what an organization says that the law says, then we really might as well not have laws and just go off of what different authoritative bodies tell us we have to do. But the fact is that authorities do commit errors all of the time and unwittingly break the law themselves frequently. By them telling us what the law says, and then by us reading the law to understand it and verify it says what they say it says, promotes our system of checks and balances; it keeps us law-abiding, and keeps them honest.

A good example applied to this discussion is that ANY church can apply to BCI under this law and I'm sure BCI doesn't go out to check their church out to make sure it complies with the law -- certainly BCI just lists their name on the site. And if you weren't thinking about the issue yourself and went to one of the community churches that throw regular parties inside the main body of their church you would THINK you couldn't go there armed. If you actually read the law, however, you could approach the religious leader and show him/her that they aren't in compliance with it and try and change things.
 
#54 ·
FM16 said:
I think people should stop getting caught up in all these definitions & remember the fact that BCI says if the church has posted it, announced it or sent a letter stating that firearms aren't alllowed, then they aren't. period. I can't say whether you will lose your permit if caught but can't say if you won't either.
As to whether or not you will lose your permit, please see the following statute:

  • U.C.A. 53-5-704. Division duties -- Permit to carry concealed firearm -- Certification for concealed firearms instructor -- Requirements for issuance -- Violation -- Denial, suspension, or revocation -- Appeal procedure[/*]
...
(b) The division may not deny, suspend, or revoke a concealed firearm permit solely for a single conviction for an infraction violation of Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons.
...
This prohibits BCI from suspending or revoking a CFP because of a single conviction of an infraction of weapons laws. However, this implies that BCI can indeed suspend or revoke a CFP on a second conviction for such an infraction.
 
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