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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I dont know if this has been covered, but I havent noticed it in any other posts so I am starting a new thread. Forgive me if I started this in error.

In numerous posts I have noticed people getting asked to leave for OPEN CARRYING in places like the Mall, or grocery stores. I just picked up Mitch Vilos 3rd edition of Utah Gun Laws and it states that if the private property allows public access, they cannot refuse you the right to carry your gun.

So my question is: if, when I am CONCEALED CARRYING, and my gun prints in one of these places and someone notices and asks me to leave.... do they have the right to do so?

There seems to be so many laws and restrictions even with a permit. Thanks in advance for your replies.
 

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Can they ask you to leave because they noticed your gun? Sure. They can also ask you to leave because they think you're ugly, or because your socks don't match or because they're having a bad day.

Could they make a trespassing charge stick if you refuse to leave? That's not so clear. Utah law says that if the property is open to the public and you aren't interfering with the owner's use of the property, then you have a defense against trespassing charges. This is where a gun may be different from mismatched socks. In the case of a gun,the owner MIGHT be able to argue that it was scaring off his customers and therefore interfering with his business. It's a lame argument, but given the right attorney and the right jury, it might stick.

However, in reality this is a moot point. Nobody but cops and other CC'ers notice printing. The sort of people who are frightened by guns rarely notice them when carried openly; drape a t-shirt over it and they'll never think twice.

IMO, the very best way to get over concerns about printing is to carry openly a few times. Even if you don't want to make that one of your common carry options, seeing what a non-issue OC is really calms down new CC'ers. That's my experience, anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So you all know I am a newb, so take this next question with a grain of salt...... am I under any obligation to tell someone I have a gun? IE, I go to the movies(concealing) and an employee notices my print as I leaned over the counter. If that employee approaches me do I have to give him any information? I am looking for moral and legal answers to this one. :)

Again, thanks for helping a newbie out! You guys have a lot of good responses.
 

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m&p40 said:
So you all know I am a newb, so take this next question with a grain of salt...... am I under any obligation to tell someone I have a gun? IE, I go to the movies(concealing) and an employee notices my print as I leaned over the counter. If that employee approaches me do I have to give him any information? I am looking for moral and legal answers to this one. :)
The only person you are required to tell is a police officer when you are being questioned. that means you don't need to walk up to the cop in the store and whisper "I got a gun." other than that you do not need to really tell any one. My neighbor asked If I was carrying when I printed, and I said "no it's my insulin pump." and she didn't push the issue at all. most the time people think it's a cell phone poking out of your shirt.
 

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m&p40,
First, don't worry about printing. No one notices. Just start carrying and you will see very quick, that nobody notices. Printing is a non-issue.
Second, if you are "made" on private property and asked to leave, I would strongly recommend you do so. Whether you ever go back and whether you do so carrying is up to you. Again, the chances of being made are slim to none. Extremely unlikely, and if you are made, and asked to leave, don't make a stink. Just leave.
Third, you have NO obligation to tell anyone ever with 1 exception. You are required by law, to tell law enforcement IF you are being detained and questioned. Other than that, you don't have to tell anyone ever even if you suspect you have been "made."

Any other questions?
 

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Back in my days(only about a year ago) as a security officer of a local mall we were told by management that no weapons of any kind, legal or illegal, were allowed in the mall. Now I wouldn't say anything to a person carrying concealed, because I didn't care if it was concealed and I didn't check out everyone's hips like I do now. But, if they were openly carrying then I, as a security officer, had to say something to appease management and customers. I would simply say, "Management has asked us not to have weapons of any kind in the building, however you may conceal and if you can't or won't conceal then you must leave it in the car." If they didn't like that then they would simply be asked to leave. I never in the 1 year that I worked there had to ask someone to leave because of a gun, not even a confrontation. Like stated in a previous post, we can ask anyone to leave because we want them to and a trespass will stick in court no matter what. If we wanted a person trespassed no matter what the crime or situation we would simply issue our own trespass and then if they didn't leave or came back then we could arrest on grounds of trespassing and the local PD would come and issue a citation for trespassing. Now, if a person has violated a trespass more than twice, the local PD would issue their city trespass notice for our property. The issue is that the citation might not hold up in court, but the trespass will always stick and you will have problems with local LEO for continuing to trespass. Just because it has public access doesn't mean you have public rights. Private businesses with public access still have their own rules, but they must have someone to enforce it just like a mall security officer. However, mall management didn't want us trespassing people unless a citation was issued by local PD, i.e. retail theft, disorderly conduct, etc. If it is someplace like the mall or a theater and they ask you to leave. I would leave for a couple of hours and come back at a later day and time. They won't remember, but if you make a fuss they will remember and will keep their eye open for you. I would rather conceal and have it with me then to be asked to leave it in the car or not come back. I am the type that 'does' until told not to 'don't.' If you want to OC, OC in businesses that you know won't create problems and trespass you, CC in those places you know will create problems. I personally will CC at the mall I worked at. They will never now even if I am around old coworkers.
 

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ndavis2008 said:
Like stated in a previous post, we can ask anyone to leave because we want them to and a trespass will stick in court no matter what.
I don't think that's correct. As I mentioned above, state law provides a defense against criminal trespass if the property is open to the public and the 'trespasser" isn't interfering with the owner's use of the property. Specifically:

(4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
(b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.
Of course that's the state criminal trespass law. There may be city trespassing ordinances, and they may not have any such provisions, but I just checked Ogden and Salt Lake and neither of them have any trespassing ordinances at all. I expect that's the norm.

That said, if I'm asked to leave I will. Not being charged is much better than having a defense.

ndavis2008 said:
If you want to OC, OC in businesses that you know won't create problems and trespass you, CC in those places you know will create problems.
Assuming you can CC. Please keep in mind that not everyone can.
 

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Ok - Help me understand the term "Printing"

Newbie here :huh:
 

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pedman said:
Ok - Help me understand the term "Printing"

Newbie here :huh:
A gun outline that shows through your clothing. The gun is covered (concealed) but your can still tell a gun is under clothing.
Example. You are wearing a t-shirt, and the t-shirt is covering your gun, however, through the t-shirt you can see the outline of your gun.
 

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PW said:
pedman said:
Ok - Help me understand the term "Printing"

Newbie here :huh:
A gun outline that shows through your clothing. The gun is covered (concealed) but your can still tell a gun is under clothing.
Example. You are wearing a t-shirt, and the t-shirt is covering your gun, however, through the t-shirt you can see the outline of your gun.
My initial thoughts were such, but I wanted to make sure - Thanks!
 
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