Concealed Carry permit revoked; UPDATE: permit reinstated

6877 Views 23 Replies 15 Participants Last post by Outsider, Jun 2, 2008

thetinman

Discussion Starter · Apr 21, 2008

I'm at my dealer the other day, and he tells me that my concealed carry permit was revoked, which was a shock to me. I called BCI and found out it was revoked because of a class B misdemeanor charge of theft of services, which I pled no contest to and was given a $250 fine and a 12 month plea in abeyance. I would have plead not guilty and went to trial but I just started a new job and did not have time to go to trial plus I thought it was no big deal.

When the plea in abeyance is terminated (in about a month), will I be able to get my concealed weapons permit reinstated? If not, is there any sort of appeal process I can go through or any mitigating circumstances that might help me get it back? Thanks for all your help.

UPDATE: The plea in abeyance terminated and the charges were dismissed. I had my CWP re-instated the day after, simply over the phone with no additional charges or paperwork.

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

bane

· #2 · Apr 21, 2008

I am not an expert but it is my understanding that since your permit has been revoked due to a crime, you will not be able to get it back (right away). Pleading guilty/no contest to ANY crime is a bad idea b/c of the implications, such as this one.

As far as I am aware you can go through a process similar to expungement. However, I am sure they will require you to go through a lengthy waiting period. I really think you would be best served to contact a knowledgeable gun attorney. I'm sure there are several out there, but Mitch Villos is a good bet.

nxiv

· #3 · Apr 21, 2008

I wouldn't even bother asking BCI to get your UT CFP back until you can get the conviction expunged. Anytime you plead guilty or nolo to a crime you risk losing any and all CCWs you have.

Also since you have a conviction on your record, you have been moved from the shall issue to may issue realm with respect to getting a UT CFP. I don't know how UT BCI treats expunged records.

In other States, you have three to five years from the time of the final disposition of your charges before you can reapply such as the case for FL, NV and VA.

Best you can hope for if you want to CCW again since UT is a we honor all State regardless of residency is to get the charges expunged and carry on a FL until you can get your UT CFP back. You will still need to pay the Brady tax when you buy a firearm in UT.

I would consult an attorney and see what your options are.

mchlwise

· #4 · Apr 21, 2008

Just so everyone is clear:

A plea-in-abeyance means that someone has plead guilty, but the court holds that plea in "abeyance" for a certain period of time and as long as certain conditions are met. If the conditions are violated within the time, the plea is entered and the person is called in for sentencing. Once the time is over, if the conditions are met, the case is then dismissed, and the person has nothing on their record.

I don't know how BCI can treat that as a normal guilty plea, but apparently they are. When the case is dismissed, I would get a copy of the dismissal and take that to BCI and see what they say. There should be no need for an expungement of a plea-in-abeyance after the allotted time and as long as all conditions are met.

marksman

· #5 · Apr 21, 2008

I have a question. I noticed that you said that you had 12 months in abeyance and then you said that the 12 months would be over in about a month. Does this mean your license has been revoked for 11 months and you didn't know? Doesn't BCI send out some sort of notification letter when the revoke a licence? If not I think they should.

thetinman

Discussion Starter · #6 · Apr 21, 2008

marksman said:
I have a question. I noticed that you said that you had 12 months in abeyance and then you said that the 12 months would be over in about a month. Does this mean your license has been revoked for 11 months and you didn't know? Doesn't BCI send out some sort of notification letter when the revoke a licence? If not I think they should.

I've known it's been revoked. They do send you a letter upon revocation. They did not revoke it immediately, it took them like 7 months.

bane

· #7 · Apr 21, 2008

thetinman said:
They did not revoke it immediately, it took them like 7 months.

I also think they should have revoked it immediately. Waiting 7 months doesn't exactly add to the argument that our program limits criminal intent by conducting a daily background check on all permit holders.

I didn't understand what a plea-in-abeyance meant but now that it has been explained I can see how BCI would revoke your permit... similar to when they suspend a permit while a person waits to go through the process of a trial. Essentially you've admitted guilt and even though it has the potential to "go away" in the future, FOR NOW you've admitted guilt. So, FOR NOW, they are treating you as guilty.

That being said, I agree with mchlwise... I doubt you should have much trouble once your time has been completed. Course, that could be a wrong assumption and you really owe it to yourself to consult with an attorney... or at least just call BCI and ask them.

roseblood

· #8 · Apr 22, 2008

My experience with a similar situation garnered a response of this:

If your record has been expunged we [BCI] will not see it and therefore have no reason to deny your permit. It will not show on your record, so as far as we're [BCI] concerned, it never happened.

That's what I got when I called them about my situation where I had my plea held in abeyance, eventually dismissed and expunged.

althor

· #9 · Apr 22, 2008

roseblood said:
My experience with a similar situation garnered a response of this:

If your record has been expunged we [BCI] will not see it and therefore have no reason to deny your permit. It will not show on your record, so as far as we're [BCI] concerned, it never happened.

That's what I got when I called them about my situation where I had my plea held in abeyance, eventually dismissed and expunged.

Except that the BCI website says this:

â€¢In determining whether the applicant has been or is a danger to self or others, the division may inspect:
Â°Expunged records of arrests and convictions of adult and juvenile court records;

link

rhinokrk

· #10 · Apr 22, 2008

thetinman said:
I'm at my dealer the other day, and he tells me that my concealed carry permit was revoked, which was a shock to me. I called BCI and found out it was revoked because of a class B misdemeanor charge of theft of services, which I pled no contest to and was given a $250 fine and a 12 month plea in abeyance...

When the plea in abeyance is terminated (in about a month)..

thetinman said:
I've known it's been revoked. They do send you a letter upon revocation. They did not revoke it immediately, it took them like 7 months.

I'm not great at math, but you recieved a letter from UTBCI 4 months ago... so why were you "shocked" the other day?

roseblood

· #11 · Apr 22, 2008

althor said:
Except that the BCI website says this:

â€¢In determining whether the applicant has been or is a danger to self or others, the division may inspect:
Â°Expunged records of arrests and convictions of adult and juvenile court records;

link

See where it says "may"? When I asked them about this, they said they used expunged records when they need to investigate a pattern of behavior in order to deny a permit.

althor

· #12 · Apr 22, 2008

roseblood said:
althor said:

Except that the BCI website says this:

â€¢In determining whether the applicant has been or is a danger to self or others, the division may inspect:
Â°Expunged records of arrests and convictions of adult and juvenile court records;

link

Click to expand...

See where it says "may"? When I asked them about this, they said they used expunged records when they need to investigate a pattern of behavior in order to deny a permit.

I did not miss where it says they may inspect those records, but I responded to the statement that 'Will not see it' and 'will not show on your record'.

But I do wonder why they would feel they need to investigate a pattern of behavior unless the records automatically come up in the first place?

nxiv

· #13 · Apr 22, 2008

It appears from googling that Utah is the only State that has this plea option. The best option given what I have been able to gather on what this plea option is to wait until the abeyance agreement has been completed then talk to BCI about it.

Worst case is that you'll have to apply again as a brand new applicant including taking the class since the CFP was revoked and not suspended.

Now the bad news, if the original poster has any out of State CCWs, the plea-in-abeyance may be treated by the other State as a guilty conviction regardless of what Utah law is. So if the original poster has any non-resident CCWs, those may be gone.

thetinman

Discussion Starter · #14 · Apr 22, 2008

rhinokrk said:
thetinman said:

I'm at my dealer the other day, and he tells me that my concealed carry permit was revoked, which was a shock to me. I called BCI and found out it was revoked because of a class B misdemeanor charge of theft of services, which I pled no contest to and was given a $250 fine and a 12 month plea in abeyance...

When the plea in abeyance is terminated (in about a month)..

Click to expand...

thetinman said:

I've known it's been revoked. They do send you a letter upon revocation. They did not revoke it immediately, it took them like 7 months.

Click to expand...

I'm not great at math, but you recieved a letter from UTBCI 4 months ago... so why were you "shocked" the other day?

I forgot to update my address and USPS stopped forwarding my mail so I never received the letter

Cinhil

· #15 · Apr 22, 2008

Unfortunately the majority of citizens have been misled to believe that to plead "No Contest," gives you a not guilty effect on a court decision. All No Contest Pleas are treated as a "Guilty" admission by the defendant.
Many believe that to plead no contest is another way of saying, "I am not guilty and would take this to trial, but I cannot afford to." This is also a misconception. Any plea that is not a guilty or not guilty will be taken as guilty, regardless of a persons ability to properly defend, or afford to procure council.
I am sorry for your predicament. I almost wonder if you can go back in and change your plea and request a trial in order to eliminate this? If so this could be a way of having your permit re-instated, so long as you can get the issue discharged under a not guilty verdict.
Whatever you decide, I wish you luck!

thetinman

Discussion Starter · #16 · Apr 22, 2008

Cinhil said:
Unfortunately the majority of citizens have been misled to believe that to plead "No Contest," gives you a not guilty effect on a court decision. All No Contest Pleas are treated as a "Guilty" admission by the defendant.
Many believe that to plead no contest is another way of saying, "I am not guilty and would take this to trial, but I cannot afford to." This is also a misconception. Any plea that is not a guilty or not guilty will be taken as guilty, regardless of a persons ability to properly defend, or afford to procure council.
I am sorry for your predicament. I almost wonder if you can go back in and change your plea and request a trial in order to eliminate this? If so this could be a way of having your permit re-instated, so long as you can get the issue discharged under a not guilty verdict.
Whatever you decide, I wish you luck!

An attorney that I consulted with after the fact told me it can't be withdrawn if 30 days have passed. With the plea in abeyance coming up, I doubt I would be able to withdraw my plea. Yes, I do know that no contest is virtually the same thing as guilty, it just means you chose not to argue against the charges.

DBL Tap

· #17 · Apr 23, 2008

A Plea in Abeyance should NOT enter as a guilty plea unless you violate the terms of your probation. If a person subsequently violates the terms of their probation, then the original guilty plea is taken from the Abeyance status and enters as a guilty. You do not get to have a trial or contest the charges. If you successfully complete your probation, the guilty plea is then withdrawn and the charges dismissed. I recommend following up with your attorney regarding the original plea deal. It sounds like the court clerk may have made a mistake.

Cowboy

· #18 · Apr 23, 2008

Very sorry to hear this, if you don't mind me asking does this put in any further position to loose your rights to own firearms ? I hope not.

thetinman

Discussion Starter · #19 · Apr 26, 2008

Cowboy said:
Very sorry to hear this, if you don't mind me asking does this put in any further position to loose your rights to own firearms ? I hope not.

No, I can still own firearms; I passed the background check even though the permit was revoked. I could still probably own even NFA firearms considering the maximum amount of jail for this offense was 6 months and you have to be convicted of something that has over a year in jail as a punishment (even if you did not receive a jail sentence) not be able to own NFA firearms or firearms in general.

thetinman

Discussion Starter · #20 · May 31, 2008

Well, the charges were dismissed with prejudice after the plea in abeyance termination. I called the BCI and the investigator simply re-instated my permit right over the phone. I did not have to pay any extra fees or reapply. I couldn't be happier with how this was eventually resolved. :lol2:

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