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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Police Warn Crime Victims Against Taking On the Bad Guy
October 31, 2007

Gene Kennedy Reporting

Victims taking on their attackers: It's happened many times in just the last week. Victims are taking the law into their own hands. In some cases the outcome is good; in others it's a death sentence. Now local police weigh in on the issue.

Surveillance video captured a robbery at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in North Carolina. When the manager couldn't get the safe open the robber pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't fire, so the manager fought back.

Salt Lake City police sergeant J.R. Nelson said, "I would not suggest people doing this."

Lt. Lamar Ewell adds, "We encourage people not to fight back."

It's the same message we hear every time we do these stories, but many are ignoring the warnings.

Lt. Ewell said, "I think it's human nature, and we're tired of being victimized."

Last night at Fashion Place Mall a woman fought off a teenager trying to steal her bag. It was a similar story yesterday at the E-Z Mart in Salt Lake City, only the thief was armed. The clerk didn't care; he beat the robber with his own gun. And two days ago, when two men tried to carjack a couple one of the victims chased the thugs away with a metal pipe then actually followed them to a residence and called police. That makes three cases of victims fighting back this week.

Lt. Ewell said, "Well, as a police department we haven't noticed it's been on the rise. It's probably just a coincidence in the last month or so."

In the case of the attempted car-jacking the victim helped police arrest two suspects. But in August the owner of a hair salon lost her life when police say she pulled a gun on an armed thief, and the crook shot her to death. Police arrested one of the suspects but they're still looking for a second man. That was a case of self-defense, but police believe fighting back cost that woman her life.
MORONS!

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2072691

I will not enter into a contract with a criminal, and that is precisely what passively accepting being a victim of a crime is- a contract by which you promise to not resist in exchange for not being killed, beaten, or otherwise brutalized.

I no sooner trust a criminal to uphold their end of this sort of contract than I would trust them to deliver a product I paid them for.

The cops are doing everyone a great disservice with this sort of BS. Shame on them.
 

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Have to agree. I watched the piece air last night and was insulted. If the sheep fight back, it makes the sheepdog's job MUCH easier.
 

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This is my first post and it was this article that got me a little hot under the collar. I quote from the article this section:

When the manager couldn't get the safe open the robber pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't fire, so the manager fought back.

Salt Lake City police sergeant J.R. Nelson said, "I would not suggest people doing this."
Now the bad guy just proved that he ATTEMPTED to murder the manager by the fact that he pulled the trigger. At that point I would do anything to save my life by coming out swinging or shoot the sucker a few times if I had my gun on me. What did sergeant J.R. Nelson think the victim should do? I just can't believe it! Do cops like taking pictures of victims? I know most don't but maybe sergeant Nelson does.

Sorry to start my first post a little upset at the logic of some people. I'm really a pretty mellow guy.
 
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I don't care if the bad guy WILL beat me down in a fight. I am not going to endorse criminality by simply letting it happen. I will set the precedent that attempting to rob, rape, or murder a human being is intolerable and punishable by immediate and perilous costs -- swifter than the long arm of the law.

My wife and kid will live in a civil community even if it costs me my life/safety. Believe me, by the time some dirt-bag goes so far as pulling his trigger, he'd better hope to high heaven that the gun goes bang and the bullet destroys my central nervous system -- or you can guarantee he's going down with me.
 

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knayrb said:
This is my first post and it was this article that got me a little hot under the collar. I quote from the article this section:

When the manager couldn't get the safe open the robber pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't fire, so the manager fought back.

Salt Lake City police sergeant J.R. Nelson said, "I would not suggest people doing this."
Now the bad guy just proved that he ATTEMPTED to murder the manager by the fact that he pulled the trigger. At that point I would do anything to save my life by coming out swinging or shoot the sucker a few times if I had my gun on me. What did sergeant J.R. Nelson think the victim should do? I just can't believe it! Do cops like taking pictures of victims? I know most don't but maybe sergeant Nelson does.

Sorry to start my first post a little upset at the logic of some people. I'm really a pretty mellow guy.
I saw this last night also and thought the same thing. What did the cops expect the clerk to do.....wait while the criminal put one in the chamber!!!! I couldn't believe it.

-PW
 

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I couldn't agree more with everyone's posts and the general sentiment of this thread.

Let me add my own $0.02.

To me, an individual's self-worth, pride, and mental strength are worth at least as much as their mere ability to breath (if not worth more!). A beat-down, shamed, victimized shell of a man (or woman!) who is simply living so that he can breath is simply not a life worth living. At least, it's not a life *I* want to live.

By cow-towing to an aggressor you are reacting in a self-defeating manner -- you may escape with your life, but you will sacrifice your self-worth and the emotional stability of your mind.

My mind is more precious to me than my life -- my life is finite, my mind is infinite. Personally I think people who have accepted taking on the victim role in order to save their life have their priorities wrong.
 

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ROFL...This is a funny article. I was a police officer for several years... This comes from the administration speaking. They don't want the public doing their job for them because it makes their department look like they can't handle things. If you ask a patrol officer (Preferably off duty) they will tell you the truth. DEFEND YOURSELF because tehy can't be there all the time. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
 

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Morons! :oops:

I couldn't agree more!

I read this article & the self serving, loathful attitude towards citizens exercising a God-given Right, by these officers, who should by all rights be pleased that we citizens are willing and able to defend ourselves when necessary, there-by making their job easier, is sickening beyond just barfing!

We pay these nincompoops salaries? There is nothing more honorable than defending one's life when the necessity is upon us, or of defending others when the need is there. To say we should cower in horror waiting for the end is complete and utter bunk! I bet neither of these officers would do so if they were just regular citizens, or if it was their life or a family member which was in jeopardy.

As for the person who fought back after the robber had a misfire in his attempt to murder him? [edited by moderator] good job! There will always be risks out there and it is how we act, what we do, and how we are able to go about protecting ourselves and our rights which make us free men and women.
For those who fight back and lose, I am truly sorry. But I applaud their efforts and hope we can all learn from and extrapolate those things from their stories which may assist us, or our families and others should similar need ever arise.

These officers should be censured or sent packing. Let's get some people with intestinal fortitude and the safety and security of the citizenry at large as their motivation, to do the job these so blatantly have no desire to care for.

As for me and my house, we shall not lie down and die, rather we shall fight till there is no more fight left in us, and then a little more!

:x
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I just got an email from KSL -

Tonight they are running a story about people calling 911 and being put on hold...

I wonder if they even see how ironic that is. I'm a bit too jaded to think they're on our side and did it on purpose.

I'm up in Idaho - have to read the text version tomorrow for my laughs...
 

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Police Warn Crime Victims Against Taking On the Bad Guy
October 31, 2007...... But in August the owner of a hair salon lost her life when police say she pulled a gun on an armed thief, and the crook shot her to death. Police arrested one of the suspects but they're still looking for a second man. That was a case of self-defense, but police believe fighting back cost that woman her life.
There is no way of knowing that this lady would not have been killed anyway. it is obvious that the perp was ready willing and able to kill her, so in actuality she lost nothing in her attempt to save her own life.

Tarzan
 
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You can call 911 if you'd like. The cops will show up. They'll take a picture of your dead body and file it away in public records. You'll get to be another horrifying headline in the newspaper, and after a few weeks, nobody but your family will care.

Congratulations, citizen! You've endorsed criminality by providing a convenient victim!
 

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Maladjusted said:
Police Warn Crime Victims Against Taking On the Bad Guy
October 31, 2007

Gene Kennedy Reporting

Victims taking on their attackers: It's happened many times in just the last week. Victims are taking the law into their own hands. In some cases the outcome is good; in others it's a death sentence. Now local police weigh in on the issue.

Surveillance video captured a robbery at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in North Carolina. When the manager couldn't get the safe open the robber pulled the trigger, but the gun didn't fire, so the manager fought back.

Salt Lake City police sergeant J.R. Nelson said, "I would not suggest people doing this."

Lt. Lamar Ewell adds, "We encourage people not to fight back."

It's the same message we hear every time we do these stories, but many are ignoring the warnings.

Lt. Ewell said, "I think it's human nature, and we're tired of being victimized."

Last night at Fashion Place Mall a woman fought off a teenager trying to steal her bag. It was a similar story yesterday at the E-Z Mart in Salt Lake City, only the thief was armed. The clerk didn't care; he beat the robber with his own gun. And two days ago, when two men tried to carjack a couple one of the victims chased the thugs away with a metal pipe then actually followed them to a residence and called police. That makes three cases of victims fighting back this week.

Lt. Ewell said, "Well, as a police department we haven't noticed it's been on the rise. It's probably just a coincidence in the last month or so."

In the case of the attempted car-jacking the victim helped police arrest two suspects. But in August the owner of a hair salon lost her life when police say she pulled a gun on an armed thief, and the crook shot her to death. Police arrested one of the suspects but they're still looking for a second man. That was a case of self-defense, but police believe fighting back cost that woman her life.
MORONS!

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2072691

I will not enter into a contract with a criminal, and that is precisely what passively accepting being a victim of a crime is- a contract by which you promise to not resist in exchange for not being killed, beaten, or otherwise brutalized.

I no sooner trust a criminal to uphold their end of this sort of contract than I would trust them to deliver a product I paid them for.

The cops are doing everyone a great disservice with this sort of BS. Shame on them.
I think they are saying this becasue they don't want someone to sue them if they said anything else and someone fought back and got hurt. I know, it's a pretty weak reason. I feel if you can fight back legally and if you feel that it would be better to fight than to give in then, it's your choice. I know I have made up my mind to fight the bad guy and protect myself and family.
 

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Do we have the start of a trend?

Woman shows burglar in house who's boss
By Pat Reavy
Deseret Morning News
Published: November 2, 2007
KEARNS â€" Jennifer Hogan knew something wasn't right the minute she stepped into her house.
"I could smell smoke," she said. "And no one in the house smokes."

She walked quietly through the rest of her house so she could figure out what was happening. That's when she came across a 17-year-old burglar who had broken in and was stealing items.

But rather than run away or scream or even act scared, Hogan took matters into her own hands.

As the teenage boy tried to run up the stairs past her, Hogan grabbed his leg and sent him tumbling to the ground face first.

"I pile-drived him right into the carpet," she said. "It was a good NFL moment."

The incident happened Wednesday morning. Hogan, 28, had just arrived home from an appointment when she came across the stranger in her house. Investigators believe the boy entered through a basement window. Hogan said a couple of the windows hadn't been locking right since some recent flooding problems.

The teen, who said he had been suspended from school, was smoking cigarettes and drinking her alcohol and had gone through her medicine cabinet and taken some jewelry, Hogan said. She found him coming out of a basement bedroom.

Hogan's former father-in-law was a law enforcement officer and had taught her a few safety tips, including how to assess a potentially dangerous situation. There are times when it is safer not to confront a criminal, she said. But once Hogan saw the teen try to run up the stairs past her, the unassuming-looking Hogan said her instincts took over.

"This is my house, this is my property. You have to fight for what you believe in," she said.

The spunky Hogan said she comes from a small town and has observed ongoing "social decline" in communities. She said it's time for residents to make a stand and take back their neighborhoods from burglars and other thugs.

"I refuse to be a victim," she said.

Once Hogan had the teen pinned face down on the ground, she sat on him and used one hand to hold his arm back and the other to dial 911 on her cell phone.

"I said, 'I will dislocate your shoulder if you try to move,"' she said. "I guess there's something to be said for a very angry Irish woman from Boston."

Hogan was able to hold on to the boy until the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office arrived and arrested him. The teen was booked into juvenile detention for investigation of a number of charges.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/cont ... 83,00.html
 

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The cop they interviewed on KSL made another similar statement that was along the same vain we've heard: "Don't fight back, wait for the police."

The reported even called her a "vigilante" because she took matters into her own hands.

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
 

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+1 Tarzan. Reminds me of a statement made by a Klingon in one of those Star Trek movies. "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees."
 

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TARFU said:
KSL is running this story now about the state of our 911 system.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2077061
Yeah, I heard a spot today on the radio about that -- sad, but it makes me laugh to turn around the very next minute and hear people talking about vigilantes when they are just trying to defend themselves. There is an obvious different between self-defense and going out looking for criminals to hunt down.
 

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The problem is the police are screwed reguardless what they say, so they choose the path that they feel is most logical and by they I mean the Admin not street officers.

For the media its it's a win - win, if the citizens wins, great, a cool story of bravery. If the citizen loses and dies..even better for them.. breaking news stayed tuned.

Sitting behind a computer and saying defend yourself and others with deadly force is easy when it's not your daughter standing in a store and the robber is demanding money from the clerk. If she would have been killed attempting to save 7-11's money, would it be worth it to you?

You have many levels of threat and you can't treat them all the same.

More often than not (statically speaking) the robber just wants some quick cash and does not want to hurt anyone. If its not your money (or if its only money) why risk escalating the violence and get hurt/dead or get someone else hurt or dead. In fact most stores fire the clerk for fighting back if the robber is demanding money.

Can you look at someone and tell if they can pull the trigger? Do you have a way of telling the scared robber who just wants money and who you could probably defeat, from the hard core criminal who is trained with his weapon and will kill on the drop of a hat?

That being said..I teach that if you feel you are in a fight for your life, fight, fight and never, never, never give up..You are it, save yourself or die.

And you are assuming that all citizens can defend themselves. Its sad, but there are those out there that have no idea how or when to defend themselves.

And the reference to the sheep was interesting. I think Col Grossman is right on point, however even if you give sheep a gun it's still sheep.. If you have the mindset of the sheepdog then good for you. Welcome to the real world, but you can't train real sheep to be a sheepdog.. you can only train sheepdogs to be better sheepdogs..The police do not decide who is sheep and who is not..its decided already.

And on the other end of the spectrum some will take it to the extreme just because they have no real idea what they are doing.

I know each and everyone of you has seen someone who you think " this guy has no business with a firearm"

What do you say to someone who has now been told by the police to defend themselves at all cost and who happens to notice your concealed firearm and they think (not everyone can think and react in real time) that you are there to hurt them so they strike first killing you (and others behind you)...think it can't happen??

I can tell from 30 years of experience that police officers absolutely love it when citizens defend themselves and win. However they cannot in good conscience tell some one to do that and risk the citizen getting hurt because he/she was doing what the police officer told them to do. If you tell someone that, are to talking to sheep or a sheepdog?

Police know that they are behind the time curve when someone is getting hurt...Believe me the police know full well that they are not the anwser to someone being hurt in real time, all they can do is try to get there and hope the citizen is still alive when they do. Shall we post a policeman in everyone's home?? I don't want one in my house, I have been a cop for a long time and I don't trust them with my TV remote.

Here is a true story that I tell all my students. There was a shooting in the steps of a court house in Texas. The ex-husband started shooting a SKS at his ex wife and their son as they exited the court house. He struck the wife and a sheriff's deputy (deputy died)

A citized who happened to be a CCW instructor was across the parking lot with a 1911 and he engaged the bad guy with his 1911. Deputies rushed outside and also engaged the bad guy but not before the bad guy engaged the instructor and killed him too.

The guy saw the police coming out in mass and he jumped into his car and fled. Police spiked his car engaged him with AR-15's and killed him.

Now that instuctor is a hero and I think he did what he felt was right. but he didn't survive the encounter..While I'm sure his family is very proud of him, it does not bring him back.

The point is that you may have the will, and you may have the means to fight back, but do you have the correct tactics installed to survive the encounter. I'm not sure I would encourage my students to take on a SKS with just a handgun..Yes, I know it might be all you have..and you have to do something..but you have to have more than just guts and a gun to survive..I know your going to scream at me for saying the instructor did something wrong. (If so your missing the point) I would like to be the first to say he was a hero and he saved lifes, God Bless him.I can only hope I would have the courage to do the same, however if someone is going to give their life for another we should honor that sacrifice by learning something from it.

Everyone has the right to defend themselves. If they choose that path they should train to that end.

Those that had it in themselve to defend themselves will, Those that do not will not, telling them to fight is a disservice to them, your going to get them hurt or dead. It's everyone choice and some have chosen to be sheep...sorry its the way it is..don't blame the cops for that.

Most feel that it won't happen to them, and they don't train..you can't change that simply by bashing the cops (like most do on these boards).

Sorry for the long post..let the cops bashing now resume.
 
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