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Doctors and guns don't mix.

6920 Views 36 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  divegeek
Passing this along from our wonderful compatriots at WAGC (Women Against Gun Control).

As anybody with any scientific exposure can tell you, this is NOT science; it's propoganda. Doctors have no business whatsoever to question you about your guns. This is called a "boundary violation," and is a serious matter... a ethical and (potentially) legal one. But, why let ethics get in the way of a "good cause." Seriously, these doctors believe that they can pass off political activism by calling guns a "medical issue."

Personally, I think it'd be appropriate to write a polite but firm letter to Willow Creek Pediatrics in Draper and Utah Valley Pediatrics in American
Fork to chastise them for participating in such crap. Bad doc! No Beamer!

If any doctor ever has the gall to question us about guns, they'll be told right then and there that they're committing a boundary violation, and that guns are a political issue, not a medical issue. If they push further, we walk out the door for good, and find an actual doctor, not an anti-gun activist.

Note the arrogance:
"If guns will not be removed from homes where children live and
play, then the safe storage of those guns becomes a health priority,"
This socialist b******d is saying that if we're so stupid to not get rid of our guns, it's a medical issue to lock up your guns where they're useless for self-defense. Because it's a medical issue, it's the doctor's business.
They also found that those not raised with a weapon at home were more likely to store guns safely
You people who were raised around guns are dangerous! You don't live up to the socialist ideal!

Lastly, kudos to Mr. Aposhian... again.

Anyhow....
From today's DesNews. Of course, guns kept locked up are worthless
for self-defense. I also notice that gun accidents--rare as they
are--are far more likely in urban areas where gun ownership is lower.
I also note that the VAST majority of deaths reported were
self-inflicted. As Japan shows, the tools used for suicide may
change, but out-lawing guns does NOT reduce suicide. And never mind
the intrusiveness of having your pediatrician ask you about AND REPORT
on your gun ownership, storage habits for those guns, etc.

I will believe that these kinds of "studies" have ANYTHING to do with
safety--rather than attacking guns and the right to an effective
self-defense--when they start asking about household chemicals,
swimming pools, and other common articles that pose MUCH greater
dangers to children than do firearms. If one believes recent reports,
the hand-sanitizer I have sitting on my sink or the fluoridated
toothpaste my children use are both fatal if ingested in the wrong
amounts.

So do the pediatricians ask about good brushing habits or remind us to
be careful with household cleaners? Nope. They just nit pick about guns.

Charles

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660226817,00.html

Families lax on gun storage?

Study on safety risks includes 2 Utah clinics
By Ben Winslow
Deseret Morning News
and Demian McLean
Bloomberg News
Two-thirds of gun-owning families fail to store their firearms
safely, posing a potential risk to children at home, according to a
pediatric study that questioned parents on the topic when they brought
children in for well-child doctor visits.
Locking up all guns lessens the odds of firearm accidents or
suicides among children, according to a team led by pediatric
researcher Robert DuRant of the Wake Forest University School of
Medicine in Winston-Salem, N.C. The findings appear in the June issue
of the journal Pediatrics.
"If guns will not be removed from homes where children live and
play, then the safe storage of those guns becomes a health priority,"
the study said.
The Utah Shooting Sports Council's Clark Aposhian said he was
skeptical of such a study, believing it artificially inflates the
number of actual accidental shootings involving children and unsecured
firearms.
"The whole idea of this study is, in my opinion, meant to elicit
a knee-jerk response that is generally defamatory towards firearms,"
he said.
Aposhian said that does not mean he is against the secure
storage of firearms. In fact, he said depending upon the household,
gun locks and gun vaults are appropriate.
"We're more realist as well in that we'd rather educate," he said.
About a third of those responding said they have at least one
gun, with rural households likelier than urban homes to own two or
more firearms and store them unlocked, the report found.
Still, serious gun injuries to children are 10 times more common
in urban environments than rural ones, the study said. Researchers
attribute the difference to "long-established cultural differences,"
including rural residents' greater familiarity with the weapons,
commonly used for recreation.
Urban residents tend to keep guns for protection, a purpose that
may provide fewer opportunities for practice, the study said.
Researchers found that the gun type was associated with storage
habits. Long-gun owners store their guns in places other than a locked
cabinet, but with the ammunition in a separate location. Handgun users
were more apt to store the guns loaded and to use gun locks. They also
found that those not raised with a weapon at home were more likely to
store guns safely, as were long-gun owners with children 2 to 5 years
old, compared to families with older children.
Gun ownership in the United States ranges from 5.2 percent of
homes in Washington to 63 percent in Wyoming, the study said.
The study sample came from 96 pediatric practices in 45 states,
Canada and Puerto Rico. During routine well-child visits to the
pediatrician, the parents of 3,745 children ages 2 to 11 were
questioned. Most of the study respondents were female.
In Utah, two pediatric clinics participated in the study: Willow
Creek Pediatrics in Draper and Utah Valley Pediatrics in American
Fork. Although no Utah-specific data was included in the study, about
one-fourth of the parents overall said they keep at least one gun at home.
The Utah Department of Health's Violence and Injury Prevention
Program says that on average, 220 Utahns die, 100 are hospitalized and
180 are treated in emergency departments for firearm injuries each
year. The numbers were based on VIPP statistics from 2001 to 2005.
However, the health department said 82 percent of those deaths
were suicides, 15 percent were homicides, 2 percent were undetermined
and 1 percent declared "unintentional."
Aposhian told the Deseret Morning News that education is vital
to firearms safety.
"Educate your child," Aposhian said. "My child goes to another
house, they stand a much better chance of surviving if a gun is left
out because they have been educated. 'Stop. Don't touch that thing.
Leave the area and go tell an adult.'"

Contributing: Lois M. Collins, Deseret Morning News

E-mail: [email protected]
21 - 37 of 37 Posts
Car Knocker said:
heavykevy said:
That's good info - you can't argue with the statistics!
Sure you can! What year are the "statistics" from and what, exactly, are the sources. Without specific attribution, they're worthless. If you're going to bandy statistics, it helps to know that you are on firm ground - anything else is apt to lead to embarrassment.
Car Knocker. Chill out! At the top of the webpage the author does state:

Various Sources
2-2-5

Now admittedly this isn't a very good reference, but those statistics are consistent with what I have read multiple times from dozens of sources......And I expect most people on this forum would believe that those statistics are close enough to reality that they are credible. People can argue all day about statistics and tweaking them to show what you want, BUT ISN'T THAT HALF THE FUN? People that don't like what the statistics SHOW aren't going to believe them anyway no matter how credible the statistics are. IMO, statistically you are more likely to die from a doctor error than a gun, but those that don't like my take on the statistics will simply dismiss them as invalid or tweaked to my liking no matter how credible I may be able to show them to be. I thought that website was hilarious given the context of this thread. Maybe it was just me, but the tone of your response seemed pretty harsh.....I thought most people would find the link pretty funny....heavykevy did!

-PW
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Sorry, but I didn't mean to sound harsh and I apologize for coming across that way. I was merely pointing out that the statistics cited were meaningless, and quite possibly erroneous, without source data, and that using such unattributable "statistics" to support an argument can easily be a mistake. Although the date 2-2-5 is appended to the text, the AAFP claimed there were 936,000 physicians in the U.S. and its territories in 2004. U.S. Census data shows 918,000 physicians in the U.S. in 2003. These data points suggest that the number of physicians cited by the linked site used data from sometime in the last century to develop that number. Who knows where the rest of the numbers came from and what years they are purported to represent?

There's no doubt in my mind that physicians and other health professionals are the cause of a lot of deaths, but if we are going to do a comparison of some sort, we should at least use defendable statistics from known sources. It's a credibility issue and, also, an issue of intellectual honesty.
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Car Knocker said:
Sorry, but I didn't mean to sound harsh and I apologize for coming across that way. I was merely pointing out that the statistics cited were meaningless, and quite possibly erroneous, without source data, and that using such unattributable "statistics" to support an argument can easily be a mistake. Although the date 2-2-5 is appended to the text, the AAFP claimed there were 936,000 physicians in the U.S. and its territories in 2004. U.S. Census data shows 918,000 physicians in the U.S. in 2003. These data points suggest that the number of physicians cited by the linked site used data from sometime in the last century to develop that number. Who knows where the rest of the numbers came from and what years they are purported to represent?

There's no doubt in my mind that physicians and other health professionals are the cause of a lot of deaths, but if we are going to do a comparison of some sort, we should at least use defendable statistics from known sources. It's a credibility issue and, also, an issue of intellectual honesty.
Agreed.

The problem with statistics as you pointed out is noone really knows exactly what they are! You could probably find credible statistics that place doctors anywhere from 2 million to half a million! Who really knows how many doctors there really are in the USA. And who are they defining as doctors?

Either way, I think the link was pretty darn funny and does make a good point.
:D

-PW
G
PW said:
If your doctor ever asks about guns send them to this website....

http://www.rense.com/general62/gns.htm

-PW
That's too charming.
Sorry that I'm responding to a 2 week old threat but I just have to say that not all doctors are anti-gun. My brother-in-law was president of the Utah Medical Association a few years back and is a big cheese at the U med center. He is always asking me to take him and his sons shooting and has no problems with guns when they are used carefully and treated with respect.
Heavykevy, it's a good idea to post a link when you quote an online story, so I searched foxnews.com and found a link for it. Here it is for all to enjoy:

Guns Don't Kill Kids, Irresponsible Adults With Guns Do
We take our children to Utah Valley Ped. in AF, and I have never had our doctor ask me about guns. There are two doctors that are in that same office and the one we dont use is verry crappy. We have had to see her on ocation when our doctor was out of town.

This wasnt the perpouse of my post. My reason for a post was that I went in to pick up a perscription for my daughter and decided to open carry to see if I got any questions or coments. Her perscription is even a controlled sub. I went in and out without any problems at all.
Mazellan said:
I went in to pick up a perscription for my daughter and decided to open carry to see if I got any questions or comments. Her perscription is even a controlled sub. I went in and out without any problems at all.
Good for you! You're brave, going into the belly of the beast called pediatrics.
I like our doctor we see. He was the first one to actuly take the time to figure out what was wrong with our son. Lucily it was just acid reflux.
Car Knocker said:
heavykevy said:
That's good info - you can't argue with the statistics!
Sure you can! What year are the "statistics" from and what, exactly, are the sources. Without specific attribution, they're worthless. If you're going to bandy statistics, it helps to know that you are on firm ground - anything else is apt to lead to embarrassment.
Good Point.

I could not find the statistics cited in the article, but I could find the following;

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/deaths.htm

Go to final data for 2004 and then to page 33 (this is the most recent data available)

Accidental deaths from firearms, all ages 649

Complications from medical and surgical care 2883.

If in fact there are 700,000 doctors and 80 million gun owners then you are 515 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a Doctor than a gun owner.

This is as good as I can do with real statistics.

Tarzan
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515x more likely.... LOL You are also 3.2x more likely to be killed with a bow and arrow than a ND/AD
G
First of all, let me state that a doctor should take all aspects of your health into consideration. This includes not just asking about your health history or family history, but also about your daily practices; be it your occupation (hazards), seatbelt usage, smoke detectors, radon levels/testing and of course firearms.
Why?

Radon levels I get as it could aid in diagnosing a medical problem. Seatbelt usage following an accident I get, also an aid in diagnosis.

How will it aid a physician in treatment to know the status of the smoke detectors in my house?

Do we now rely on physicians to tell us, in more verbose terms of course, "don't do stupid ****"?

Doctors are the same as lawyers; the only difference is that lawyers merely rob you, whereas doctors rob you and kill you too.
- Anton Chekhov
[/quote]
Only two times have guns come up between a doctor and I.

1) Had to lock it up for an MRI, they had lockers.

2) Please remove your shirt. Me: OK. Him: Oh, are you a police officer? Me: No. Him: OK, and breathe deeply and exhale...

It's never come up otherwise. I've never encountered the supposedly militant anti-gun doctor or questions about guns.
Maladjusted said:
2) Please remove your shirt. Me: OK. Him: Oh, are you a police officer? Me: No. Him: OK, and breathe deeply and exhale...
ROTFLMAO

To see the look on his face :shock:
My doc would be like, "Dude, that's toooootally wicked!!!! Sweet piece!"

Then he'd probably slap me on the butt just to make me momentarily as nervous as I made him. :lol: :oops:

I'm kidding.......
When I went to Front Sight for the Tacticle shot gun course I was with a Thorasic surgeon and 2 of his hospital staff. I asked them several times after a shooting drill if they thought they could fix the guy I just shot. It was interesting to hear what they thought would have been destroyed by the shot placement. :shock: :lol:

I also asked him the senerio if he was on call at home and had a home intruder that he had to shoot what he would do if he walked in on the call and it was the one he shot laying on the table. I know it wouldn't happen because he would be too involved with the police but they did wonder about one of them shooting somone and the others were called in to work on the guy that one of the others shot. Interesting conversation. But they didn't think with double OO buckshot that the guy would make it to their table if he took a load in the thorasic cavity.
If my kids' pediatrician asked me about my guns, I'd tell him and then treat his recommendations the same way I treated his comments about my trampoline: I smiled, nodded and ignored them.

That said, I do think safe storage is really important for houses that have kids. I have four kids, ages 6 through 14, and I take a dual approach to safety.

First, all of my kids, even the six year-old, know how to shoot (at least the basics), and all of them can recite and apply the four laws of gun safety. I've overheard them teaching their friends, and criticizing improper gun handling seen in movies. They also know what they're supposed to do if they find a gun lying around -- don't touch it and tell an adult. I test them on that from time to time by, for example, leaving a gun lying on my bed and then sending one of them to my room to get something for me. If they don't come tell me about the gun, they get Yet Another Lecture On Gun Safety. It makes them roll their eyes at me, but it works.

I'm pretty confident I could leave guns lying around without risk, but I don't. All of my guns are always locked up, except when I'm using or transporting them. When not strapped to me, my self-defense weapon is locked in a small gun safe next to my bed. The safe is opened by pushing a combination of four large buttons. I practiced until I can open the safe in the dark, even half asleep. Though the combination has never failed to work, the key to the safe is hidden in my room as a backup. The rest of the guns are locked in a traditional gun cabinet, the key to which is stored in the small safe.

I wouldn't fault my pediatrician if he asked about guns in the home. I'd consider it a reasonable safety issue for him to address, along with a host of others. Now that I think about it, I'm mildly annoyed he didn't ask about guns. If he started giving me silly recommendations about getting rid of my guns, even after I explained how I handle it, then I'd just smile, nod, and tune him out.
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