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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A thread on another forum got me thinking about the Cheesecake Factory.

Cheesecake Factory is not on my usual list of eateries: average food and service at high prices in my opinion. But, I have family members who enjoy it.

So this week I finally had the chance to make a visit since I had heard about some brouhaha at a location in a different State. I ate at the Cheesecake Factory at Fashion Place Mall. I OC'd my full sized 1911, with the obligatory "I Voted" sticker on the holster.

I looked for and didn't see any signs banning guns on my way in. I did see the no smoking signs that adorn all public establishments in Utah. State law bans smoking in all public buildings and within 25 feet (I think it is) of the entrances.

I sat with the OC'd firearm on the outside edge of the booth as I and three family members ordered and ate dinner.

Not a word said by anyone about my firearm, though with the dim lighting it is possible that nobody noticed it.

On the way out of the restaurant I turned around to look for signs again. Only then did I notice a "ghost buster" style no gun sign in the least conspicuous location it could be placed on the inner set of doors. Nothing on the outer doors. The sign was modest sized, maybe 7 inches per side. But it was placed in the lowest, left corner sidelight window next to the inner set of doors. These inner doors, open outward, and with the door open it is all but impossible to see the sign. So, no surprise I missed it on my way in even though I was looking for it.

In any event, since these signs carry no force of law in Utah, no violation of law is committed by ignoring or missing these signs. Nor, is there any requirement whatsoever regarding signs to ban guns.

Tough to boycott someplace I rarely visit anyway. And not like anyone in this particular franchise seemed to care or notice.

But the gun buster sign is rare enough in Utah to be notable and I thought I'd pass this along to any who might care to know.

Charles
 

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The sign is there for your convenience.

They can always ask you to leave.

If you do not leave you are trespassing which is a crime.

Then the police can come and haul you off and book you downtown.

You took a big chance.

It makes sense to call ahead and find out -- that's called responsible gun ownership.

With a misdemeanor conviction the BCI would have yanked your CFP.
 

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bagpiper said:
A thread on another forum got me thinking about the Cheesecake Factory.

Cheesecake Factory is not on my usual list of eateries: average food and service at high prices in my opinion. But, I have family members who enjoy it.

So this week I finally had the chance to make a visit since I had heard about some brouhaha at a location in a different State. I ate at the Cheesecake Factory at Fashion Place Mall. I OC'd my full sized 1911, with the obligatory "I Voted" sticker on the holster.

I looked for and didn't see any signs banning guns on my way in. I did see the no smoking signs that adorn all public establishments in Utah. State law bans smoking in all public buildings and within 25 feet (I think it is) of the entrances.

I sat with the OC'd firearm on the outside edge of the booth as I and three family members ordered and ate dinner.

Not a word said by anyone about my firearm, though with the dim lighting it is possible that nobody noticed it.

On the way out of the restaurant I turned around to look for signs again. Only then did I notice a "ghost buster" style no gun sign in the least conspicuous location it could be placed on the inner set of doors. Nothing on the outer doors. The sign was modest sized, maybe 7 inches per side. But it was placed in the lowest, left corner sidelight window next to the inner set of doors. These inner doors, open outward, and with the door open it is all but impossible to see the sign. So, no surprise I missed it on my way in even though I was looking for it.

In any event, since these signs carry no force of law in Utah, no violation of law is committed by ignoring or missing these signs. Nor, is there any requirement whatsoever regarding signs to ban guns.

Tough to boycott someplace I rarely visit anyway. And not like anyone in this particular franchise seemed to care or notice.

But the gun buster sign is rare enough in Utah to be notable and I thought I'd pass this along to any who might care to know.

Charles
Thanks for sharing, Charles. Sounds like a good experience. I've a feeling many places in Utah that have a national footprint are obligated by corporate to post the signs but rarely enforce them here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Karl said:
The sign is there for your convenience.

They can always ask you to leave.

If you do not leave you are trespassing which is a crime.

Then the police can come and haul you off and book you downtown.

You took a big chance.

It makes sense to call ahead and find out -- that's called responsible gun ownership.

With a misdemeanor conviction the BCI would have yanked your CFP.
The responsible thing to do is to pull your arrogant head out of your rectal orifice and stop being a jack hat.

I took zero chance except of possibly being denied entry or asked to leave. And that is so rare in Utah that one can about count on one hand the number of locations likely to do that: Jazz Arena, some of the Miller Family businesses, maybe IHC or other hospitals if you are just visiting, and a few of the malls.

Furhter, Utah's commercial trespass law requires a bit more than just ignoring a poorly visible gunbuster sign that carries no legal weight.

I will politely ignore your arrogance and declarative manner of posting, so long as you have the good sense not to presume to tell me what Utah law is when I know those laws far better than you do.

You're entitled to your anti-RKBA, bootlicking opinions.

You are not entitled to pass along crap legal advice as if it were true or accurate.

I no more call ahead to ask if I've welcome with my gun than I'd call ahead to ask if I'm welcome with a black, Asian, Atheist, Republican, or homosexual friend. If someone has an issue, they can ask me to leave. Until then, I assume public establishments are open to the public, including those of us who carry guns, who wear T-shirts with politically incorrect statements on them, who have body art that mind offend certain sensibilities, and so on and so forth.

Get off your ****** high horse and at least try to learn something of Utah's laws and culture before lecturing those of us who have got a lifetime of our own, plus 5 generations of ancestors, and who have spent two decades actively involved in crafting and passing legislation.

Charles
 

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bagpiper said:
Karl said:
The sign is there for your convenience.

They can always ask you to leave.

If you do not leave you are trespassing which is a crime.

Then the police can come and haul you off and book you downtown.

You took a big chance.

It makes sense to call ahead and find out -- that's called responsible gun ownership.

With a misdemeanor conviction the BCI would have yanked your CFP.
The responsible thing to do is to pull your arrogant head out of your rectal orifice and stop being a jack hat.

I took zero chance except of possibly being denied entry or asked to leave. And that is so rare in Utah that one can about count on one hand the number of locations likely to do that: Jazz Arena, some of the Miller Family businesses, maybe IHC or other hospitals if you are just visiting, and a few of the malls.

Furhter, Utah's commercial trespass law requires a bit more than just ignoring a poorly visible gunbuster sign that carries no legal weight.

I will politely ignore your arrogance and declarative manner of posting, so long as you have the good sense not to presume to tell me what Utah law is when I know those laws far better than you do.

You're entitled to your anti-RKBA, bootlicking opinions.

You are not entitled to pass along crap legal advice as if it were true or accurate.

I no more call ahead to ask if I've welcome with my gun than I'd call ahead to ask if I'm welcome with a black, Asian, Atheist, Republican, or homosexual friend. If someone has an issue, they can ask me to leave. Until then, I assume public establishments are open to the public, including those of us who carry guns, who wear T-shirts with politically incorrect statements on them, who have body art that mind offend certain sensibilities, and so on and so forth.

Get off your [auto-filtered] high horse and at least try to learn something of Utah's laws and culture before lecturing those of us who have got a lifetime of our own, plus 5 generations of ancestors, and who have spent two decades actively involved in crafting and passing legislation.

Charles
Spot on, Charles! :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
jfwright1955 said:
Thanks for sharing, Charles. Sounds like a good experience. I've a feeling many places in Utah that have a national footprint are obligated by corporate to post the signs but rarely enforce them here.
I expect a fair number have an official policy. But even seeing posted signs is rare here. This sign was obviously not posted with any intent to be conspicuous...or if that was the intent, whomever chose the location was grossly incompetent. I'll instead assume it was posted to comply with corporate policy hoping to raise as little notice in pro-RKBA Utah as possible.

Thankfully, since these signs have no force of law in Utah, if one desires to obtain goods/services from a posted establishment, concealing all but assures avoiding any issues, short of the establishment using metal detectors to deny entry (Jazz arena).

If one desires to deny business to establishments that, for whatever reason, have an anti-RKBA policy, it is good to know which are the few in Utah that go so far as to post signs.

Charles
 

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Indeed, Charles.

bagpiper said:
... But even seeing posted signs is rare here. ...
I think the only time I've seen (noticed) such a sign was at a movie theater once, which leads to your next observation...

bagpiper said:
... concealing all but assures avoiding any issues, short of the establishment using metal detectors to deny entry (Jazz arena).
And that's one of several reasons I choose to carry concealed.

As a side note that's kind-of-sort-of related: On a recent trip to Vegas I had an interesting conversation with the Security Manager at one of the big casinos. My main question was regarding carrying a cased firearm and ammo to my room, which he said is quite okay and folks do it all the time. Interestingly enough, as we were talking a group of hunters in town for an expo, or something, walked by with their cased rifles and bulk ammo boxes. He just said, "see", pointing in their direction.

Anyway, I brought up the topic of the general consensus of casinos regarding someone carrying a firearm for defensive purposes in a casino even if it's posted "no firearms". Obviously we're talking Nevada now and not Utah, but he said the same thing, "concealed is concealed and if we don't know we don't know and we don't care". He continued to say the only time they get nervous and approach a person is if the person is open carrying or their concealed firearm is printing really badly and they think it may be noticed by casino guests. Even then security just asks the person to leave and that's typically the end of it he said.

Of course, this is not legal advice and, to be clear, I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to be one and so proceed at your one caution. I share the story only for it's similarities so take it for what it's worth, or not.
 

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bagpiper said:
Karl said:
The sign is there for your convenience.

They can always ask you to leave.

If you do not leave you are trespassing which is a crime.

Then the police can come and haul you off and book you downtown.

You took a big chance.

It makes sense to call ahead and find out -- that's called responsible gun ownership.

With a misdemeanor conviction the BCI would have yanked your CFP.
The responsible thing to do is to pull your arrogant head out of your rectal orifice and stop being a jack hat.

I took zero chance except of possibly being denied entry or asked to leave. And that is so rare in Utah that one can about count on one hand the number of locations likely to do that: Jazz Arena, some of the Miller Family businesses, maybe IHC or other hospitals if you are just visiting, and a few of the malls.

Furhter, Utah's commercial trespass law requires a bit more than just ignoring a poorly visible gunbuster sign that carries no legal weight.

I will politely ignore your arrogance and declarative manner of posting, so long as you have the good sense not to presume to tell me what Utah law is when I know those laws far better than you do.

You're entitled to your anti-RKBA, bootlicking opinions.

You are not entitled to pass along crap legal advice as if it were true or accurate.

I no more call ahead to ask if I've welcome with my gun than I'd call ahead to ask if I'm welcome with a black, Asian, Atheist, Republican, or homosexual friend. If someone has an issue, they can ask me to leave. Until then, I assume public establishments are open to the public, including those of us who carry guns, who wear T-shirts with politically incorrect statements on them, who have body art that mind offend certain sensibilities, and so on and so forth.

Get off your [auto-filtered] high horse and at least try to learn something of Utah's laws and culture before lecturing those of us who have got a lifetime of our own, plus 5 generations of ancestors, and who have spent two decades actively involved in crafting and passing legislation.

Charles
Very well said, Charles. It appears that Karl's goal here is to butt heads with just about anybody, but it does seem like he really makes quite a point of arguing with you.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
jfwright1955 said:
Anyway, I brought up the topic of the general consensus of casinos regarding someone carrying a firearm for defensive purposes in a casino even if it's posted "no firearms". Obviously we're talking Nevada now and not Utah, but he said the same thing, "concealed is concealed and if we don't know we don't know and we don't care". He continued to say the only time they get nervous and approach a person is if the person is open carrying or their concealed firearm is printing really badly and they think it may be noticed by casino guests. Even then security just asks the person to leave and that's typically the end of it he said.

Of course, this is not legal advice and, to be clear, I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to be one and so proceed at your one caution. I share the story only for it's similarities so take it for what it's worth, or not.
I spent a lot of time in Vegas in my youth. Growing up in St. George when I did there was almost no shopping beyond groceries. We could drive an hour to Cedar to have some shopping, or drive 2 hours to Vegas to have all the shopping of the big, crazy city. Of course, that was well before non-discriminatory permits got going, and before I was old enough to get a permit anyway.

But I haven't spent hardly any time in Nevada the last 30 years. Just doesn't hold much interest to me. So I have almost no idea what their laws actually are.

I believe we recently regained Nevada recognition of Utah permits. Are casinos or other common locations legally off limits? Or only if posted or they ask you to leave?

I'm given to understand that Clark County is the least gun friendly place in Nevada and also carries a lot of political weight with the population (their version of Salt Lake County).

How is State preemption, anything to be aware of before visiting Nevada generally or Vegas specifically?

Thanks

Charles
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Wrangler_dave9 said:
Very well said, Charles. It appears that Karl's goal here is to butt heads with just about anybody, but it does seem like he really makes quite a point of arguing with you.
I don't know that he's singled me out worse than anyone else. Maybe I just react more strongly or sooner to his style of posting than do some of our more charitable members here. :D

My intention really is to ignore him. Feeding trolls is one of the surest ways to have them hang around and get even more vocal.

I'm just about finished with OCDO because of the conduct of a couple of trolls that seem to have driven away most of the civil and sensible folks, leaving the rapid anarchist missionaries and other overt anti-government types and the trolls as the majority voices. I'd hate to see one jerk have a similar effect here.

But handing out garbage legal advice is materially damaging to sites like this where folks may be looking for guidance on what is legal or socially acceptable. Opinions about what should be, can be ignored. Assertions that are materially in error about what law or culture is are another matter.

Charles
 

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bagpiper said:
jfwright1955 said:
Anyway, I brought up the topic of the general consensus of casinos regarding someone carrying a firearm for defensive purposes in a casino even if it's posted "no firearms". Obviously we're talking Nevada now and not Utah, but he said the same thing, "concealed is concealed and if we don't know we don't know and we don't care". He continued to say the only time they get nervous and approach a person is if the person is open carrying or their concealed firearm is printing really badly and they think it may be noticed by casino guests. Even then security just asks the person to leave and that's typically the end of it he said.

Of course, this is not legal advice and, to be clear, I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to be one and so proceed at your one caution. I share the story only for it's similarities so take it for what it's worth, or not.
I spent a lot of time in Vegas in my youth. Growing up in St. George when I did there was almost no shopping beyond groceries. We could drive an hour to Cedar to have some shopping, or drive 2 hours to Vegas to have all the shopping of the big, crazy city. Of course, that was well before non-discriminatory permits got going, and before I was old enough to get a permit anyway.

But I haven't spent hardly any time in Nevada the last 30 years. Just doesn't hold much interest to me. So I have almost no idea what their laws actually are.

I believe we recently regained Nevada recognition of Utah permits. Are casinos or other common locations legally off limits? Or only if posted or they ask you to leave?

I'm given to understand that Clark County is the least gun friendly place in Nevada and also carries a lot of political weight with the population (their version of Salt Lake County).

How is State preemption, anything to be aware of before visiting Nevada generally or Vegas specifically?

Thanks

Charles
We only go down to Vegas to visit relatives. We don't gamble and refuse to pay the seemingly outrageous amounts of money for shows nor restaurants. Maybe that just comes with the frugalness of getting older. We do, however, head to the Clark County Shooting Complex for a little recreational shooting with whatever strikes our fancy to take down with us. Prior to Utah's CFP permit being accepted again by Nevada I carried my Idaho Enhanced Concealed Carry Permit, which was recognized at that time (and still is).

Before heading to any state I usually consult Legal Heat's app to check on the legalities, including Nevada. Given Nevada seems to have chosen a minimalistic approach with regard to firearms laws I think it's usually left at the mercy of some brave soul who's willing to test the legal boundaries in a court of law.

That said, I believe Nevada follows Utah's definitions quite closely regarding firearms and businesses. I found the following reference, which appears to be somewhat consistent with our definition:

"If a casino does not allow guns, you cannot bring a gun inside. Even though "No Gun" signs do not hold the weight of law, police can arrest you for trespassing if you disobey the order to disarm or leave the casino. It is not technically breaking the law to carry in a casino, but you have to comply with establishment rules. You can, however, bring a weapon into bars. It's legal to carry a weapon even if you're consuming alcohol. Keep in mind that you cannot legally have a firearm on your person if your blood alcohol content (BAC) level exceeds 0.10%." Source: De Castroverde Law Group

As far a Clark County, they used to have much more restrictive local ordinances in place, that was until about a year or two ago when they got their hands royally slapped by the State for inventing their own laws. They've since abandoned those ridiculous laws in favor of falling in line with the State. You no longer have to get out your "firearm do's and dont's" manual before crossing the county line into Clark County.
 

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jfwright1955 said:
We only go down to Vegas to visit relatives. We don't gamble and refuse to pay the seemingly outrageous amounts of money for shows nor restaurants.
Totally off-topic, but one of my kids was talking about getting married in the Las Vegas Temple. I told him that if he did that, he better plan it between the end of October and the beginning of March if they want me to show up. Outside of that window, it's just too dang hot. :D

Matt
 

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morcey2 said:
jfwright1955 said:
We only go down to Vegas to visit relatives. We don't gamble and refuse to pay the seemingly outrageous amounts of money for shows nor restaurants.
Totally off-topic, but one of my kids was talking about getting married in the Las Vegas Temple. I told him that if he did that, he better plan it between the end of October and the beginning of March if they want me to show up. Outside of that window, it's just too dang hot. :D

Matt
I hear ya. Summer time you just go from an air-conditioned plane through an air-conditioned airport to an air-conditioned car and check into an air-conditioned hotel after which you take your air-conditioned car back to the air-conditioned airport and jump in the air-conditioned plane to come home. Don't know about you but if I want to spend all that time in an air-conditioned enclosure I might as well just stay home. :D

You realize that's also an ideal time to head to Front Sight? After all, you are in the vicinity, right? :wink:
 

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jfwright1955 said:
I hear ya. Summer time you just go from an air-conditioned plane through an air-conditioned airport to an air-conditioned car and check into an air-conditioned hotel after which you take your air-conditioned car back to the air-conditioned airport and jump in the air-conditioned plane to come home. Don't know about you but if I want to spend all that time in an air-conditioned enclosure I might as well just stay home. :D

You realize that's also an ideal time to head to Front Sight? After all, you are in the vicinity, right? :wink:
Yep, I want to take advantage of that opportunity when I get the chance.
 

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Sorry, Charles, we'll now return your post to its regularly scheduled channel. :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
jfwright1955 said:
Sorry, Charles, we'll now return your post to its regularly scheduled channel. :wink:
No problem. There has to be some advantage to lack of moderator. And a little good natured thread drift is one of them. :D
 

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Solus=Karl. Both on ignore list so dont see what they post unless it is quoted. Much more pleasant experience now.

You don't need to know what kind of device or tool was used to send this
 

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bagpiper said:
Wrangler_dave9 said:
Very well said, Charles. It appears that Karl's goal here is to butt heads with just about anybody, but it does seem like he really makes quite a point of arguing with you.
I don't know that he's singled me out worse than anyone else. Maybe I just react more strongly or sooner to his style of posting than do some of our more charitable members here. :D

My intention really is to ignore him. Feeding trolls is one of the surest ways to have them hang around and get even more vocal.

I'm just about finished with OCDO because of the conduct of a couple of trolls that seem to have driven away most of the civil and sensible folks, leaving the rapid anarchist missionaries and other overt anti-government types and the trolls as the majority voices. I'd hate to see one jerk have a similar effect here.

But handing out garbage legal advice is materially damaging to sites like this where folks may be looking for guidance on what is legal or socially acceptable. Opinions about what should be, can be ignored. Assertions that are materially in error about what law or culture is are another matter.

Charles
Not singling you out per se.

But your postings are ludicrous.

You don't read. You just spout.

Read Heller when you get a chance.

And take a refresher CFP class your next chance.
 

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So here is a fun "compare and contrast" for you. Having been a CFP instructor in Utah for about a decade (am not one at the moment) and now being a "License to Carry" (LTC) instructor here in Texas, its interesting to note how the two states handle "gun-buster" signs.

In Utah, the places where you can't carry are pretty clearly spelled out -- if it's not on the list, it's not on the list. A person representing the property owner can always ask you to leave, which gets us to trespass laws, but then again they can ask you to leave for any ol' reason (not prohibited by law).

In Texas, there are official signs for saying you can't carry concealed, as described in section 20 of the penal code (http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm). The signs take two forms: the 30.06 (http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/ ... 30-06.html) which pertains to concealed carry, and 30.07 (http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/ ... 30-07.html) for open carry. These two signs, which have specific wording, font size, readability, and placement requirements, are considered to be "written communication" providing notice in the section saying "[F]or purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication".

The idea is that, in Texas, you need to have "effective consent" to carry a handgun on someone's property. The 30.06 and 30.07 signs are clear indicators of not having effective consent, but the gun buster signs are not so clear. Did the property owner choose to use a gun-buster sign knowing that some people would feel comforted by them while LTC holders would recognize them as not being official (and able to carry), or did the property owner actually mean no guns at all -- and does that apply to law enforcement as well? So you could be arrested for carrying at a location with a gun-buster sign, and then it would be up to the courts to figure out if you actually committed an offense. With 254 counties in Texas, there are at least 254 different flavors of how that could play out. I know of at least one case where a judge considered a gun buster sign to be an effective communication.

So what is missing from the Texas code is saying the ONLY (posted) written form for giving notice is the 30.06 and 30.07 signage. The way I look at it -- in Utah, the gun-buster sign expresses an opinion; in Texas the gun-buster sign may or may-not be considered by the property owner to be an effective communication of notice.

</sigh> I miss the clarity of the Utah laws.
 
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