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I agree with Hedonistic... in the military they always taught us that our #1 defense is the defense of PRESENCE -- if someone seems shady, they taught us, the first and best thing you can do is let them know in no uncertain terms that they have been noticed by you and that they have your complete attention. This will dissuade most shady figures except those with very strong intent (incidentally they teach the same thing to those who work in retail... greet every customer with a smile, a nice comment, and most importantly direct eye-contact... the idea is that the good customers will appreciate the warm attention and the thieves will be put on edge right from the start). Bad guys don't want people to notice them.

I also agree with Hedon regarding options. His Walmart Taser story was an excellent example of being able to have "options" drawn without running risk of getting in legal troubles. My wife and I go walking most nights during the week and whenever a large dog comes up on us I always draw my OC and have it out and ready... sure, not as deadly as the gun but I can openly carry it in my hand and be prepared before anything even actually happens. In your situation drawing the weapon as you walked through the parking lot is not a very good idea; better would be to have an option you could draw and carry openly. Not only would it serve as a notice and a deterrent but it would buy you time if he acted to get to your gun.

I frequently place my OC canister in my palm, even if I don't actually remove it from my pocket, out in public. I just think it's a highly practical tool to prevent these sorts of situations from progressing.
 

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The incontinent truth about Tazer’s and Pepper Spray

First Pepper Spray;

One or more of the following will be the result of using a canister of pepper spray on an attacker.

1. It will work as designed…..good
2. It will have no effect…..bad
3. It will enrage the attacker….bad
4. It will have only marginal effect…..bad
5. There will be cross-contamination and you will be disabled…bad
6. It will kill the attacker….good or bad…you decide.
7. You hesitate trying to decide between your gun or your spray and you end up dead…..bad

Of the possible options, all, but one, are, for sure, bad.

http://www.tyc.state.tx.us/ombudsman/re ... spray.html

Second Tazer;

One or more of the following will be the result of using any of the various types of tazer’s on an attacker.

1. It will work as designed…..good
2. It will have no effect…..bad
3. It will enrage the attacker…..bad
4. It will have only a marginal effect…..bad
5. It will kill the attacker……good or bad…you decide.
6. You hesitate trying to decide between your gun or your tazer and you end up dead…..bad

Of the possible options, all, but one, are, for sure, bad.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1663076

Tarzan
 

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Good info Tarzan

I have been carrying pepper spray for awhile (before i got my permit)
I now carry both a gun and spray.After your comments I may hang the spray
on the visor and get a backup (better odds)

Thanks
Eli
 

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Eli said:
Good info Tarzan

I have been carrying pepper spray for awhile (before i got my permit)
I now carry both a gun and spray.After your comments I may hang the spray
on the visor and get a backup (better odds)

Thanks
Eli
You are welcome.

Eli...we all want to be good kind people.

None of us wants to kill anyone.

In a perfect world this could be the case....BUT this just isn't a perfect world and for the safety of my family and myself, I want to be as sure as possible that any attacker is stopped as quickly as possible before any of my loved ones are hurt.

The next to the last thing I ever want to do is take another human life, BUT...
The very last thing I want to do is watch someone I love being hurt or injured because I was not able to protect them.

I practice a lot so that I don't have to stop and decide. I practice so that I can just act.

If I just act...then I have increased the odds in my favor.

For you guys that want to carry spray or tazers.....That is your choice and I don't second guess your personal choice.

The truth, for me, is that I am not ready to take that chance.

Tarzan
 

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Tarzan1888 said:
The incontinent truth about Tazer’s and Pepper Spray

First Pepper Spray;

One or more of the following will be the result of using a canister of pepper spray on an attacker.

1. It will work as designed…..good
2. It will have no effect…..bad
3. It will enrage the attacker….bad
4. It will have only marginal effect…..bad
5. There will be cross-contamination and you will be disabled…bad
6. It will kill the attacker….good or bad…you decide.
7. You hesitate trying to decide between your gun or your spray and you end up dead…..bad

Of the possible options, all, but one, are, for sure, bad.
I disagree.

2 is not bad. It's not good, it's just neutral.
3 is only bad if the attacker hadn't decided to attack already. Otherwise it's just irrelevant, and may provide better after-the-fact justification for drawing your gun.
4 is not bad, it's good. It had an effect, so it will help even if it doesn't solve the problem.
5 is bad. Don't spray into the wind.
6 is unfortunate, but neither good nor bad. If you had adequate justification for using the spray, it's not your fault if the guy had a weak heart -- particularly if your OTHER option was to put bullets into his chest.
7 is bad -- so don't do it. I carry my pepper spray on my left side, and I practice deploying it with my left hand while my right goes to the grip of my gun.

So, only two of your "bad" options are, in fact, bad... and they're bad only if you don't know how to use the tool.

Finally, you could enumerate a nearly identical list with respect to a gun:

  1. It will work as designed…..good[/*]
  2. It will have no effect…..bad[/*]
  3. It will enrage the attacker….bad[/*]
  4. It will have only marginal effect…..bad[/*]
  5. It will ricochet and you will be disabled…bad[/*]
  6. It will kill the attacker….good or bad…you decide.[/*]
  7. You hesitate trying to decide between a head shot and a center mass shot and end up dead... bad.[/*]

So, if we just count up the outcomes we have to conclude that defending yourself with a gun is a bad idea??? This is the kind of reasoning we hear from anti-gunners.

Not that outcome modeling is a bad idea -- it's a really good idea. But you have to weight the outcomes probabilistically, and you have to state your assumptions. An individual who has practiced with his or her OC spray, and knows its capabilities and characteristics, and who trains to be prepared to deploy the gun whenever the spray is used, is very, very unlikely to make the mistakes for your "bad" outcomes in 5 and 7. It's also vanishingly unlikely that good-quality pepper spray to they eyes and mouth will have no effect.
 

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Tarzan,I agree with you

The reason I carry spray is I have been on the road for about 7yrs.With the lack of info and permit.The spray was all I could have.
I have had a few scary cases traveling where CCing would have made me fill alot better(2 in S.Cal,3 in N.Cal,1 in Idaho, and 3 in Reno)
I'm lucky all turned out good(nobody hurt).These are why I decided to buy a gun(3yrs ago) I never took the gun outside in fear of the laws.

I no longer travel and also have a permit.I also have 4 kids and 3 grand kids.So times have changed.But habits are hard to change.
I do see my spray getting retired after I can find a backup (replacement)

I do thank you and all members for the info to make me more comfortable to CC everyday and everywhere

Eli
 

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swillden said:
Finally, you could enumerate a nearly identical list with respect to a gun... So, if we just count up the outcomes we have to conclude that defending yourself with a gun is a bad idea???

Not that outcome modeling is a bad idea -- it's a really good idea. But you have to weight the outcomes probabilistically, and you have to state your assumptions. An individual who has practiced with his or her OC spray, and knows its capabilities and characteristics, and who trains to be prepared to deploy the gun whenever the spray is used, is very, very unlikely to make the mistakes for your "bad" outcomes in 5 and 7. It's also vanishingly unlikely that good-quality pepper spray to they eyes and mouth will have no effect.
My thoughts exactly! Anyone who thinks #'s 2, 3, or 4 are very probabilistic have clearly neither been sprayed themselves nor have witnessed a large # of people get sprayed. In the Navy we were required to get sprayed, roughly 1/3 of the boat had to carry it, so we had to be sprayed first... so that's a little over 100 people. Of those 100, only 1 guy was anywhere near immune to it and even then he said the first 10 seconds or so he couldn't see... 10 seconds is more than enough time to put distance between you and the perp and draw your gun if need be.

As for #5, I can assure those same people who have never been sprayed themselves that it will not "disable" you -- wow, you are worried it WON'T disable the attacker but then somehow make the assumption that it WILL disable you??? Obviously, that logic doesn't hold. If there is cross-contamination, yes you will be in for a much tougher fight but you still aren't going to be "disabled"... if you exercise enough focus and determination you are still capable of fighting however handicapped you might be.

As for #6, pretty unlikely -- immediately, anyways. OC itself doesn't kill, it's the subsequent fat-guy-lying-on-his-stomach-and-can't-breathe-properly that needs to worry about death.

As for #7, again, faulty logic. You should never resort to OC when SURPRISED with a vicious attack -- in those cases, go for the gun! OC is there in the case where you DO have a bit of time to plan and OC permits you to be openly-armed in situations that don't yet warrant it and where the sight of a gun in your hand might escalate the problem and/or get you into legal trouble. OC shouldn't be used to fight off an aggressive surprise attack; it's for stopping an ESCALATING situation not one that has ALREADY escalated.
 

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Eli said:
I do see my spray getting retired after I can find a backup (replacement)
OC isn't meant to be a backup. If you want a BUG, you should get one. But that doesn't invalidate the need for a Less-Than-Lethal option. They are 2 entirely different tools for 2 entirely different situations. Consider any gray-situation where using your gun *MIGHT* be justifiable but also might *NOT* be justifiable. Sure, you can use your gun in those situations and then plead your case to the DA, the Judge, and the Jury and pray you don't go to jail for a very long time. That's 1 option. I prefer the other option: a Less-Than-Lethal tool where the use of a firearm might be viewed as unwarranted.

After all, what's more likely: a crazed-psycho shooting up the gas station you are at, or some guy you accidentally cut-off coming up to punch you in the nose?

Like I said, you can always shoot first and ask for forgiveness later; I'm not sure that's the route I'm wiling to take.
 
G

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Tarzan1888 said:
The incontinent truth about Tazer’s and Pepper Spray

First Pepper Spray;

6. It will kill the attacker….good or bad…you decide.

Second Tazer;

2. It will have no effect…..bad
3. It will enrage the attacker…..bad
4. It will have only a marginal effect…..bad
5. It will kill the attacker……good or bad…you decide.

Tarzan
#6 crap, spray could only contribute in a state of extreme respiratory distress IE severe asthmatic attack

#2 crap, if hit with both barbs in it will work.
#3 crap, if hit there is no voluntary muscle movement, just hit the taser again.
#4 crap, see #2 #3
#5 crap unless the guy jumps like Michael Jordan use-ta-could gets hit mid air with a defective pace maker tasers may be a contributory factor at best

Many deaths attributed to positional asphyxia, spray, tasers and beatings are more attributable to exited delirium and drugs.

Tased or sprayed para-mortem is inclusive at best. Have half a brain and articulate why the son-a-buthead had it comin to him.
 

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hedonistic said:
Tarzan1888 said:
The incontinent truth about Tazer’s and Pepper Spray

First Pepper Spray;

6. It will kill the attacker….good or bad…you decide.

Second Tazer;

2. It will have no effect…..bad
3. It will enrage the attacker…..bad
4. It will have only a marginal effect…..bad
5. It will kill the attacker……good or bad…you decide.

Tarzan
#6 crap, spray could only contribute in a state of extreme respiratory distress IE severe asthmatic attack

#2 crap, if hit with both barbs in it will work.
#3 crap, if hit there is no voluntary muscle movement, just hit the taser again.
#4 crap, see #2 #3
#5 crap unless the guy jumps like Michael Jordan use-ta-could gets hit mid air with a defective pace maker tasers may be a contributory factor at best

Many deaths attributed to positional asphyxia, spray, tasers and beatings are more attributable to exited delirium and drugs.

Tased or sprayed para-mortem is inclusive at best. Have half a brain and articulate why the son-a-buthead had it comin to him.
:lol3: :lolbang: :ROFL: :lol3: :lolbang: :ROFL: :lol3: :lolbang: :ROFL:

Tarzan
 

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Tarzan1888 said:
......For you guys that want to carry spray or tazers.....That is your choice and I don't second guess your personal choice........
Tarzan
 
G

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bane said:
After all, what's more likely: a crazed-psycho shooting up the gas station you are at, or some guy you accidentally cut-off coming up to punch you in the nose?

Like I said, you can always shoot first and ask for forgiveness later; I'm not sure that's the route I'm wiling to take.
Amen, if you carry because you are looking for an excuse to pop a guy perhaps you should seek the help or a mental professional, let me say this
TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER

and did i mention this cool new taser?
 

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hedonistic said:
bane said:
After all, what's more likely: a crazed-psycho shooting up the gas station you are at, or some guy you accidentally cut-off coming up to punch you in the nose?

Like I said, you can always shoot first and ask for forgiveness later; I'm not sure that's the route I'm wiling to take.
Amen, if you carry because you are looking for an excuse to pop a guy perhaps you should seek the help or a mental professional, let me say this
TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER

and did i mention this cool new taser?
What he said. :agree:
 

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hedonistic said:
bane said:
After all, what's more likely: a crazed-psycho shooting up the gas station you are at, or some guy you accidentally cut-off coming up to punch you in the nose?

Like I said, you can always shoot first and ask for forgiveness later; I'm not sure that's the route I'm wiling to take.
Amen, if you carry because you are looking for an excuse to pop a guy perhaps you should seek the help or a mental professional, let me say this
TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER TASER

and did i mention this cool new taser?
on thing a tazer doesn't give you though is quick follow up shots for multiple attackers.
 
G

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Six things that are always with me Keys, Wallet, Cell, Flashlight, Taser, Gun............. Not the normal check list but it suits me just fine.
 

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You know I have had a little fun with you guys on using Tazers or spray, and on less than lethal options in general, BUT the truth is that I have been known to carry less than lethal forms of self protection myself.

I am Irish and often when I go out.....in addition to my side arm or, if I am not allowed to carry by law, in lieu of it, I carry a shillelagh.

I have studied and practiced the ancient Irish martial art of Bataireacht.

Tarzan
PIC00001n.jpg
PIC00002n.jpg
 

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Tarzan1888 said:
... I am Irish...
Them right there is fightin' words ol' man!!! :bat:
(I'm Scottish)

:D

BTW, *KEWL* pix! Glad to see you "come around'! :lol:
 

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bane said:
Tarzan1888 said:
... I am Irish...
Them right there is fightin' words ol' man!!! :bat:
(I'm Scottish)

:D

BTW, *KEWL* pix! Glad to see you "come around'! :lol:
I am a decedent of Norman (who came over from Scotland)......and we were both raped and pillaged by the Vikings and I am half Danish....so where does that get us.. :dunno:

As far as me coming around.....I do like to stir the pot once in awhile.

That is why I quoted myself when I said your choice for self defense is your choice.

I am very much opposed to less than lethal forms of defense when it comes to the wilds and bear defence....because there a Bazooka is not to big..IMHO.

I know I should not give people a bad time......but I will have to plead a J.Golden on that too.

Tarzan

PS by pleading a J. Golden I mean the following quote......"Don't worry about me going to Heck. I repent to Darn fast."

That's not exactly what J Golden said....but you get the idea
 

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Tarzan1888 said:
I am a decedent of Norman (who came over from Scotland)......and we were both raped and pillaged by the Vikings and I am half Danish....so where does that get us.. :dunno:
I know... my wife is Welsh and I'm CONSTANTLY harassing her about being some frail, royal snob who caved in to the English and left the fighting to the Scots and the Irish! :ROFL:
 
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