[knayrb]

I’m a newbie here and don’t want to offend anyone but I, like most here, have opinions. I enjoy other people’s view so that I can learn from them. I will not hesitate to change my opinion when through education and study I find I was wrong. That being said â€" the past few months I have been mentally analyzing why many in our society have a fear of firearms. I have watched videos on people that open carry in public, many to prove a point to the police. Now I understand the law on this but I also can understand why it makes the general public nervous. Guns are dangerous and I don’t think anyone would disagree. That’s why we own them. They are dangerous to the person it is pointed at. Of course we that use firearms should be trained and practice safety so that the risk of danger to ourselves and others is very low.

Now if a person is walking down the street with a firearm on display next to their hip, the passerby has to have confidence that 1) you are a law abiding person not looking to cause harm, 2) the gun is not loaded (we are taught to assume all guns are loaded), and 3) the gun won’t accidentally go off and kill someone (hey, people hear about that happening often on the news). To an average mother walking down the street with a kid or 2 in tow she sees a gun and instantly thinks that you could be a bad guy because why else would you be wearing a gun. She doesn’t know any different and is therefore fearful. The mother doesn’t want her kids to be around guns and a potential bad guy because that is what she has been conditioned to think by society, movies, and the media. I can’t recall a movie (except a western) where a guy is walking down the street in open carry mode and the gun isn’t part of the plot â€" but then again I don’t see all that many movies or television. Guys in movies that have a gun on their hip are either police or a bad guy. The media has such an influence on society’s biases and perceptions.

Now I suppose these open carry groups are trying to educate the general population that not all those that carry a gun are bad people but that is a very tough perception to overcome and, try as they may, it will probably will never happen. Changing the public’s perception that guns can save lives is about as easy making felons and future felons gun possession proof. I don’t see either happening in the near future. I applaud the open carry groups and individuals for trying to educate the public but until their efforts are more successful and society in general accepts guns as a live saving tool, I will carry concealed. I have friends and family that are terrified of guns. So also is the general public. I respect their feelings and hopefully someday they will see the light and learn to appreciate firearms for the protection they provide.

What are other’s thoughts? Teach me.

 

[Tarzan1888]

I’m not a newbie here and don’t want to offend anyone but I, like most here, have opinions. I enjoy other people’s view so that I can learn from them. I will not hesitate to change my opinion when through education and study I find I was wrong. That being said â€" the past few months I have been mentally analyzing why many in our society have a fear of cars. I have watched videos on people that open drive cars in public, many to prove a point to the police. Now I understand the law on this but I also can understand why it makes the general public nervous. Cars are dangerous and I don’t think anyone would disagree. That’s why we own them. They are dangerous to the person in them and the person they are driven towards. Of course we that use cars should be trained and practice safety so that the risk of danger to ourselves and others is very low.

Now if a person is driving down the street openly in a car, the passerby has to have confidence that 1) you are a law abiding person not looking to cause harm, 2) the person driving the car is not loaded (we are taught to assume all drivers don't drink and drive), and 3) the car won’t accidentally go off the road and kill someone (hey, people hear about that happening often on the news). To an average mother walking down the street with a kid or 2 in tow she sees a car and instantly thinks that you could be a bad guy because why else would you be driveing a dangerous thing like a car. She doesn’t know any different and is therefore fearful. The mother doesn’t want her kids to be around a dangerous thing like a car that kills 44,933 people per year in the United States, with 13,418 of them being children, and the driver could be a potential bad guy because that is what she has been conditioned to think by society, movies, and the media. I can’t recall a movie (except a western) where a guy is driving down the street in a car and the car isn’t part of the plot â€" but then again I don’t see all that many movies or television. Guys in movies that are driving around openly in a car are either police or a bad guy. The media has such an influence on society’s biases and perceptions.

Now I suppose these open driving groups are trying to educate the general population that not all those that drive a car are bad people but that is a very tough perception to overcome and, try as they may, it will probably never happen. Changing the public’s perception so that they understand that cars can save lives is about as easy making people believe that killing all those people every year is not the cars falt. I don’t see either happening in the near future. I applaud the open car driving groups and individuals for trying to educate the public but until their efforts are more successful and society in general accepts cars as a live saving tool, I will drive concealed. I have friends and family that are terrified of cars. So also is the general public. I respect their feelings and hopefully someday they will see the light and learn to appreciate cars for the protection they provide.

These are my thoughts, and I have tought you.

Tarzan

PS There is a God given right to self protection, but not to driving cars and cars kill far more people in the US every year than do guns.
(Moter vehicle accidents 44,933 - Accidental discharge of firearms 649)
The above is a little reality check.

 

[knayrb]

Rewritting my post bothered me some because you cannot substitute gun for cars in every sentence. Cars are accepted differently in society and are common place. Guns on the belts of people are not common and are unusual. Society is typically not fearful of cars even though they can be dangerous. I see and am around 1000's of vehicles every day. They are common place and most of society doesn't think twice about them. I can walk through a parking lot full of cars and see feel pretty safe because I can move out of the way if one is backing out.

I'm not even suggesting that open carry shouldn't be allowed. I'm just stating the fact that it scares people because it is not what the typical citizen does - no more, no less. That's my observation.

BTW - I'm raising my hand because I haven't been fully taught - yet. :wink:

 

[bane]

Tarzan,

Your argument is well-made, and though there are many others, this was a good start!

That being said, I think it is incorrect to say that we do not have a God-given right to drive cars. This is a common mis-perception for many reasons; mainly because we have allowed our government to legislate that right for so long and to such a pervasive degree that we have become conditioned and convinced of it.

However, I would like to remind you that our God-given Rights have been best summed-up as our Rights to: Life, Liberty, Property (or, the Pursuit of Happiness). Our Right to self-protection is a natural extension of our Right to Life. Our Right to Travel is a natural extension of our Right to Liberty. And our Right to Drive Cars is a natural extension of our Right to Travel. And as early as at least the 1950's, U.S. Federal Courts on more than one occasion have ruled that the Right to Travel included vehicular means since the vehicle is nothing more than a tool (just as a gun is nothing more than a tool). Tools cannot commit crimes, and thus should not be legislated. Now, I know that's hard to swallow because of the all-pervasiveness of regulations requiring DL's, license plates, insurance, etc. But my step-father has fought this issue out in the lower courts many times and I have seen the case law for myself. Typically the lower courts blow by it (because it IS indeed so hard to swallow) but as far as I know every case he has ever sent to the appellate court has been handed back to the local court and told to correct the problem... and the lower courts just sit on it, refusing to act, because they don't want to have to face the truth of those earlier rulings... and nothing ever comes of it. Now, if someone had some serious money and wanted to fight it, they could likely win... but it would take an aweful lot... until then, you and I are stuck with getting DL's and such. But the TRUTH of the matter is that vehicles are in fact a God-given Right every bit as much as guns and the almighty pen are.

P.S.: I still liked your argument and stats, though!!!

 

[Paul]

knayrb,

I don't have time to respond very well. (I'm leaving in the morning for a week in Costa Rica...YIPPEEE). However, I will say that I have some of your same feelings. You are not alone. Hopefully you never feel like you can't express your feelings and opinions on this forum. My experience has been that people here are great and even when people disagree everyone always respects the right to disagree. So don't ever be hesitant to go against the grain. I'm still a newbie like you.

I feel very strongly that there will come a day where someone that is "Anti-gun" or scared of guns will thank me for carrying a concealed weapon. I am not looking for trouble and don't want to find any, but I just can't shake the feeling that there will come a time in my life when someone is very grateful that I carry. That will do more to change attitudes than anything else.

-PW

 

[bane]

knayrb,

I see your point of contention with Tarzan's post -- his main point was correct, though -- but I understand what you are saying, also.

And your point is really the crux of the answer, I think:

Cars are accepted differently in society and are common place. Guns on the belts of people are not common and are unusual. Society is typically not fearful of cars even though they can be dangerous. I see and am around 1000's of vehicles every day. They are common place and most of society doesn't think twice about them. I can walk through a parking lot full of cars and see feel pretty safe because I can move out of the way if one is backing out.

What (I think!) the OC'ers (I'm not one, but I support them) are trying to achieve is something that aims directly at this quote you said. Based on what you said, I infer:
1 - Cars are accepted in society BECAUSE they are common
2 - Guns are NOT accepted BECAUSE they are NOT common
3 - Even though cars are dangerous, people are NOT fearful of them BECAUSE we see them every day
4 - You FEEL safe about cars BECAUSE you THINK you can move out of harm if needed

If those statements took what you were saying out of context, please forgive and correct me.

Otherwise, my rebuttal in support of our OC'ers would be:
1 - Assuming that cars are accepted purely on the grounds of COMMONALITY, it follows that:
2 - Guns might BECOME accepted if they were COMMONLY seen
3 - And even though guns CAN BE dangerous, people would NOT fear them BECAUSE guns would be COMMONLY seen every day
4 - And you would FEEL safe about guns BECAUSE you would REALIZE (from being more intimately aware of them) that an OC'd gun is a thousand times easier to keep an eye on, and move out of harm if needed than a CC'd gun is.

I am not saying I've "taught" you... but I hope I've brought something to the table.

 

[xmirage2kx]

Wow.... where to start......

Cars are accepted differently in society and are common place. Guns on the belts of people are not common and are unusual.

With about ¼ the people carrying guns in Utah they are Very common. I would say they are more common than pickup trucks. Now just because everyone can see a truck and not everyone sees a gun does not mean they are any less common. I think this covers that whole post. Now for the first one.

I have watched videos on people that open carry in public, many to prove a point to the police. Now I understand the law on this but I also can understand why it makes the general public nervous.

I watch Idiots (I mean people) do all kinds of things to prove points. I could kill many more people with my car than I ever could with my gun if I wanted to.

Guns are dangerous and I don’t think anyone would disagree.

I will disagree. Guns are some of the safest thing I deal with each day. All day my job has me working with deadly chemicals. On the drive to and from work I have to dodge idiots on cell phones or doing makeup at least twice each way. I start each day by running a razorblade along my neck trying not to cut myself open only to place a noose around my neck (Tie). I have to trust that people around me are not going to make a mistake that will end their and/or my life with cars, job equipment, etc. I have to watch what I eat as to not die of a heart attack in 5 years. That gun on my hip in a high quality holster with multiple safeties that can only cause injury if I intentionally un-holster it, remove all safeties, point it at you, and pull the trigger is pretty darn safe.

Now if a person is walking down the street with a firearm on display next to their hip, the passerby has to have confidence that
1) you are a law abiding person not looking to cause harm,

Pretty simple: doesn’t look like they came from a rap video = good guy

2) the gun is not loaded (we are taught to assume all guns are loaded), and

My gun is ALWAYS loaded (not just treated that way) what good is it if it is not loaded? (excuse me mister bad guy, could you please wait while I load my gun so I can shoot you?)

3) the gun won’t accidentally go off and kill someone (hey, people hear about that happening often on the news).

Do you hear about car thefts on the news? What about people helping old ladies take out the trash? Maybe car stereos being stolen? NO! do you know why… Because they actually happen. You hear about the rare stuff on the news, not the common stuff. A gun going off happens so seldom in that it makes the news, while a car being stolen is a minutely occurrence.

To an average mother walking down the street with a kid or 2 in tow she sees a gun and instantly thinks that you could be a bad guy because why else would you be wearing a gun.

Because I am a good guy wanting to protect the ones I love maybe?

I can’t recall a movie (except a western) where a guy is walking down the street in open carry mode and the gun isn’t part of the plot â€" but then again I don’t see all that many movies or television. Guys in movies that have a gun on their hip are either police or a bad guy. The media has such an influence on society’s biases and perceptions.

They also drive cars off cliffs, jump through burning buildings, fly, shoot lasers out of their eyes, sleep with every hot librarian they see, always solve the crime, and do it all in under 3 hours.

Now I suppose these open carry groups are trying to educate the general population that not all those that carry a gun are bad people but that is a very tough perception to overcome and, try as they may, it will probably will never happen.

It is doubtful they will eliminate racism either, does that mean we shouldn’t try?

I have friends and family that are terrified of guns. So also is the general public. I respect their feelings and hopefully someday they will see the light and learn to appreciate firearms for the protection they provide.

I am terrified of women driving minivans, and I have much better reasons than people have for being scared of guns (see my signature)

 

[Tarzan1888]

....Cars are accepted differently in society and are common place......

I see that you are starting to understand already. :shock:

I wanted it to bother you, but with a little humor.

When I took my CWP course, it bothered me that there were people present with guns on their hips.

When I started to wear a gun around the house, as well as when I left, it bothered my wife and children. My wife now not only tolerates my carrying but expects me to carry to protect her.

I would guess that it still bothers guests when they come to my home or people who see me. No one has ever said anything in my home.

On several occtions my carring openly has sparked a conversation.

One time the server in a restaurant in SLC about jumped out of his skin when he saw my 1911. I took it as an oppertunity to educate him on weapons and carrying them. My wife chimed in with "You don't have to worry with him around, because he has your back" and the server ended up with a very different opinion of carrying a firearm openly.

Another time, in a different restaurant, a lady sitting near me saw my gun and leaning over said, I am so glad I am sitting by you. I now feel safe here eating my dinner.

She told me how she had been trying to get her husband to get a permit and carry.

Mostly people don't say anything. I do get a lot of double takes though.

Tarzan

 

[knayrb]

Tarzan, We might be talking about 2 different things. We all have the God given right to bear arms, unless we have shown by our actions that we can't be trusted with them. I totally agree that we have a right to travel and drive unless we are not physically and capable of doing it and would be a danger to others on the road.

My point is that society is conditioned to believe that people with guns have bad intentions. That is not true but it is what the general population believes. I'm not suggesting that it isn't a right given to us by God and the founding fathers of our great country. Through our education you and I have overcome that bias in society and now know that law abiding people can carry guns and do not have bad intentions. Carrying a gun in the open, while perfectly legal and a human right, scares the general population of law abiding people. They don't know what the open carriers intentions are and assume the worst.

I have to confess - On the streets of Salt Lake I would take a second look and wonder what someone with a gun on their side was up to, or what statement he or she was making. If I was out in the wilderness and passed a guy on the trail I wouldn't think twice about it. I don't know exactly why I feel that way but that's what I feel. In either case I would be glad that I am concealing my personal protection just in case.

Thanks Everyone. I enjoy the discussion.

 

[Tarzan1888]

With about ¼ the people carrying guns in Utah they are Very common. I would say they are more common than pickup trucks. Now just because everyone can see a truck and not everyone sees a gun does not mean they are any less common. I think this covers that whole post. Now for the first one.

Actually it is about 1 in 25 adults who have a permit to carry. 1 in 25 is a lot, but not quite 1/4

Good Job on everything else you said.

Tarzan

 

[xmirage2kx]

You worry because you were told to worry. I grew up thinking that guns were illegal to own and if anyone who was not a cop was found with one they were going to jail. Even with this I never thought that most people who had guns were bad, I just thought they must be cops.

If I stressed to my kids that people in red shirts were bad and were ot to kill you then guess what... my kids would worry about people in red shirts. Even when they grew up they wouldnt like red shirts because they would still think red shirts = bad. Only after being educated about red shirts would they know the truth

 

[T-Man]

Looks like the *** opened up a can of worms. Be careful when you start questioning a person's reason for carrying (open or concealed) around here. I personally haven't gotten the courage up yet to OC, but my hat's off to those who do. I know it's perfectly legal and it would be good for me and those around me, I guess I just don't like the idea of getting weird looks or questions. I get enough of those already when I have to go places in my "soldier costume."

Both knaryb and Tarzan have made good points here, but I think I have to agree more with bane. The more common guns become, the more they will be accepted. And the "dangerousness" of guns (and cars) is 100% dependent on the user.

I would like to know where xmirage2kx came up with "about ¼ the people carrying guns in Utah." That would be 500,000 people!

 

[Tarzan1888]

Tarzan, We might be talking about 2 different things. We all have the God given right to bear arms, unless we have shown by our actions that we can't be trusted with them. I totally agree that we have a right to travel and drive unless we are not physically and capable of doing it and would be a danger to others on the road.

My point is that society is conditioned to believe that people with guns have bad intentions. That is not true but it is what the general population believes. I'm not suggesting that it isn't a right given to us by God and the founding fathers of our great country. Through our education you and I have overcome that bias in society and now know that law abiding people can carry guns and do not have bad intentions. Carrying a gun in the open, while perfectly legal and a human right, scares the general population of law abiding people. They don't know what the open carriers intentions are and assume the worst.

I have to confess - On the streets of Salt Lake I would take a second look and wonder what someone with a gun on their side was up to, or what statement he or she was making. If I was out in the wilderness and passed a guy on the trail I wouldn't think twice about it. I don't know exactly why I feel that way but that's what I feel. In either case I would be glad that I am concealing my personal protection just in case.

Thanks Tarzan. I enjoy the discussion.

My use of a car was only to illistarate a point.

We have the right to free speach too, but it still scares the ____ out of me when I hear or see what some people use that right for.

Just for your information bad guys, never carry openly and never use a holster.

From Force Science News: http://tinyurl.com/3coogp

NEW FINDINGS FROM FBI ABOUT COP ATTACKERS & THEIR WEAPONS

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons
they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published,
5-year study by the FBI.

Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

. . .

CONCEALMENT.

The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the
front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly
tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another
person to carry, "most often a female companion." None regularly used
a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

. . .

Because they eschew holsters, offenders reported frequently touching a
concealed gun with hands or arms "to assure themselves that it is
still hidden, secure and accessible" and hasn't shifted. Such gestures
are especially noticeable "whenever individuals change body positions,
such as standing, sitting or exiting a vehicle." If they run, they may
need to keep a constant grip on a hidden gun to control it.

. . .

NOTE: For new findings from the FBI researchers about highly dangerous
suicide-by-cop confrontations, read the exclusive 2-part report by
Force Science Research Center board member Chuck Remsberg at:

http://www.policeone.com//suicide-by-co ... s/1195055/

It is our responsibility to aleviate the fears of others through education.

Tarzan

 

[Tarzan1888]

You worry because you were told to worry. I grew up thinking that guns were illegal to own and if anyone who was not a cop was found with one they were going to jail. Even with this I never thought that most people who had guns were bad, I just thought they must be cops.

If I stressed to my kids that people in red shirts were bad and were ot to kill you then guess what... my kids would worry about people in red shirts. Even when they grew up they wouldnt like red shirts because they would still think red shirts = bad. Only after being educated about red shirts would they know the truth

Don't people at the U wear red shirts????

Is blue OK???

Tarzan

 

[Tarzan1888]

Looks like the *** opened up a can of worms. Be careful when you start questioning a person's reason for carrying (open or concealed) around here. I personally haven't gotten the courage up yet to OC, but my hat's off to those who do. I know it's perfectly legal and it would be good for me and those around me, I guess I just don't like the idea of getting weird looks or questions. I get enough of those already when I have to go places in my "soldier costume."

Both knaryb and Tarzan have made good points here, but I think I have to agree more with bane. The more common guns become, the more they will be accepted. And the "dangerousness" of guns (and cars) is 100% dependent on the user.

I would like to know where xmirage2kx came up with "about ¼ the people carrying guns in Utah." That would be 500,000 people!

You are makeing exactly my point. My intent was to get people thinking and that is exactly what you are doing.

Remember the old saying, "give a man a fish...."

I tell stories and such to get people to think and figure out the critical concept themselves. This way they remember it. If I just tell them they soon forget it.

Way to go.

Tarzan

 

[bane]

I have to confess - On the streets of Salt Lake I would take a second look and wonder what someone with a gun on their side was up to, or what statement he or she was making. If I was out in the wilderness and passed a guy on the trail I wouldn't think twice about it. I don't know exactly why I feel that way but that's what I feel. In either case I would be glad that I am concealing my personal protection just in case.

HEY, JOIN THE CLUB!!!

I react EXACTLY the same way as you, even a little bit cautious in your wilderness example (though, less so, b/c I doubt many thugs do much hiking or hunting). I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing someone OC'ing and being slightly cautious of and aware of who they are, what they are doing, etc. It's just common sense. What isn't common sense is when I choose to let my illogical FEELINGS overtake my REASON and REACT ignorantly. There is no reason to have a little bit of honest mistrust for those around us who we don't know -- it's what you do with that mistrust that makes the difference.

I think Robert Frost said it best: "Good fences make good neighbors."

 

[xmirage2kx]

I would like to know where xmirage2kx came up with "about ¼ the people carrying guns in Utah." That would be 500,000 people!

I meant 1/4 the people own guns and 1/4 of those carry

In the last 5 years about 100,000 permits have been issued/renewed for Utah. (see BCI)

There are about 1,750,000 people in Utah over 18y/o (as of 2005)
I can’t find how many own trucks but people who own vehicles are about 1/4 the people over 18 (as of 2005) so about 440,000 say 1/2 own trucks (I am sure this is high) making it 220,000 trucks and 410000 guns. So by this math I get about 2 guns per truck and 2 trucks per permit holder.

 

[T-Man]

Remember the old saying, "give a man a fish...."

I think I know this one. "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Introduce him to Top Ramen and you don't have to give or teach him anything." :lol:

 

[Tarzan1888]

Remember the old saying, "give a man a fish...."

I think I know this one. "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Introduce him to Top Ramen and you don't have to give or teach him anything." :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You got me laughing out loud on that one.

My Scouts always want to take Top Ramen on camp outs and I say NO!

Tarzan

 

[knayrb]

Is blue OK???

Tarzan

Blue is not OK! :lol:

My apologies to "opening up a can of worms". It sure is easier to discuss opinions when you are face to face and maybe someday that will happen. xmirage2kx, I'm just too lazy to respond to each of your points. Some I agree with and others I have more questions. I just like to study both sides of social issues and I really didn't mean to challenge anyone.

For the record, I support both open and concealed carry and hope your none of you think I don't. Even though I'm new here, from what I've read this is the common bond that the members of this forum have.