The link wouldn't work for me. Can you find it anywhere else?
Great Article and Video on Open Carry
http://www.freestateblogs.net/dave_ridl ... y_aug_2007
I came across this while surfing. Great article and video on educating LEO back east.
JMann
I came across this while surfing. Great article and video on educating LEO back east.
JMann
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
I have to question if they were "Looking" for this to happen. They claim not, but if it wasn't then they were just very ready.
I was just going to post this video and am glad to see it here already. Direct link -
I think the real morals of the story are:
- the guy knew his rights inside and out.
- he stayed calm, didn't aggravate the police, and was patient while they slowly figured out that the guy was totally legal open carrying.
- he had a mechanism for recording the conversation so there's no way the police could dispute what actually happened. If you're in a similar situation, simply call your home or office and wait for the voice mail/answering machine to pick up. If your cell phone has a speaker phone, use it to pick up both sides of the conversation.
- until police become better educated about weapons laws and rights, we'll continue to endure situations like these.
I think the real morals of the story are:
- the guy knew his rights inside and out.
- he stayed calm, didn't aggravate the police, and was patient while they slowly figured out that the guy was totally legal open carrying.
- he had a mechanism for recording the conversation so there's no way the police could dispute what actually happened. If you're in a similar situation, simply call your home or office and wait for the voice mail/answering machine to pick up. If your cell phone has a speaker phone, use it to pick up both sides of the conversation.
- until police become better educated about weapons laws and rights, we'll continue to endure situations like these.
I had just seen this video earlier today. I am not exactly sure how I feel about how Mr. Ridley handled the situation. He was polite and curtious for the most part, but I think he did escalate the situation a little bit. I understand exercising you rights but I don't think I would have done it the same way. I may have informed the officer that I am not obligated by law to give him the "papers" but then conceded just to quicken the process. I assume the officer found out the information he needed to by getting Mr. Ridley's name, so I wonder why make him go through the longer process. I personally think it was all to get attention for himself and not a humble educating process for the officers benefit. Good video though. This is one of the reasons I have never open carried. I want to, but I don't like situations like that.
One more thing, I was getting extremely bugged by his friend. Especially when he waved his hand in front of the cops face like that. Wow, I was ready for the cop to react. Well done on the part of the officer in my opinion.
One more thing, I was getting extremely bugged by his friend. Especially when he waved his hand in front of the cops face like that. Wow, I was ready for the cop to react. Well done on the part of the officer in my opinion.
Just a brief comment: It is unfortunate that in law enforcement today their training is mostly on how to write a ticket, or how to control others through physical manipulation (restraining).
Just my observation and peepm on the subject. It is unfortunate. Glad to see this gentleman really knew his rights & refused to be abused, and in fact educated the minions.
Just my observation and peepm on the subject. It is unfortunate. Glad to see this gentleman really knew his rights & refused to be abused, and in fact educated the minions.
Interesting. Do I have to show ID here in a similar circumstance? Are UT laws different?
What if I am carrying open, 2 actions away from firing, since we can all do that permit or not---would I still have to show DL or CCW?
Al
What if I am carrying open, 2 actions away from firing, since we can all do that permit or not---would I still have to show DL or CCW?
Al
I was wondering the same thing when I saw that video. I figured that if I were to open carry with one in the pipe, by law I'd have to inform the officer of my permit, right? If my gun was legally unloaded, then I don't know what the law requires. What about the officer merely asking for our drivers license? Must we by law concede? And are the officers to take our word alone if our gun is truly unloaded? Well, just a couple of the many questions that popped in my head while watching it.
That was fascinating. The guy who was open carrying and had been stopped for questioning remained calm throughout. His buddy, on the other hand, was a bit more aggressive, including that waving of the hand in front of an officer's face. That probably wasn't a smart move.
As to the requirement to notify an officer if we are carrying, this is all that I was able to find:
As to the requirement to notify an officer if we are carrying, this is all that I was able to find:
- Duty to Notify
This lists Public Safety Rule R724-4-13 as the authority, but I couldn't find that. The next link is what I could find.[/*] - R722-300-12. Requirement to Notify Peace Officer When Stopped
[/*]When a concealed firearm permit holder or certificate of qualification holder is stopped for questioning by a peace officer based on reasonable suspicion in accordance with Section 77-7-15 and the holder has a concealed firearm in his/her possession, the holder shall immediately advise the peace officer that he/she is a lawful holder and has a concealed firearm in his/her possession.
IMNALiampacking said:Interesting. Do I have to show ID here in a similar circumstance? Are UT laws different?
What if I am carrying open, 2 actions away from firing, since we can all do that permit or not---would I still have to show DL or CCW?
Al
In Utah you have to show ID if carrying loaded.
If unloaded you have to show ID if there is cause you are in violation of any law. Since police can claim just about anything (aka: underage, looks like a criminal, etc) If you dont show ID it may cause legal headaches.
That's my understanding also, that in Utah, if you're asked for ID, you'd better show it. But, you don't have to provide any other information or say anything else, UNLESS you are a CFP holder AND are carrying you must inform them of this.
A question: What if you are NOT carrying, should you still tell the officer you are a CFP holder?
In my concealed carry course, the instructor said that you should even if you're not carrying because the cop will run your drivers license, see that you are a CFP holder (it this true?), and then wonder where your gun is. He said that telling them up front will diffuse any situations.
Thoughts?
A question: What if you are NOT carrying, should you still tell the officer you are a CFP holder?
In my concealed carry course, the instructor said that you should even if you're not carrying because the cop will run your drivers license, see that you are a CFP holder (it this true?), and then wonder where your gun is. He said that telling them up front will diffuse any situations.
Thoughts?
If you are not carrying you do not have to inform the police you have your permit. They can see you have a permit by running your name/DL#. However no gun = don’t have to tell. I generally state: "I have a CFP, and I have (or don’t have) my weapon on me"apollosmith said:In my concealed carry course, the instructor said that you should even if you're not carrying because the cop will run your drivers license, see that you are a CFP holder (it this true?), and then wonder where your gun is. He said that telling them up front will diffuse any situations.
Thoughts?
As there are seldom times I am not armed it is a matter of habit to state I have a CFP when encountering an officer.
If the LEO asks you if you currently have a gun in your possession when you don’t; just state you do not have a weapon at this time.
I've heard dispatchers on the scanner report back on a driver's license check that the person in question has a CFP, so yes, the officer will more than likely know about it. You're not required to inform the officer that you have a CFP if you're not carrying, but I personally would do it anyway just so they're not wondering about it when they return to your vehicle after the DL check (or whatever the situation may be).apollosmith said:A question: What if you are NOT carrying, should you still tell the officer you are a CFP holder?
In my concealed carry course, the instructor said that you should even if you're not carrying because the cop will run your drivers license, see that you are a CFP holder (it this true?), and then wonder where your gun is. He said that telling them up front will diffuse any situations.
A personal opinion from one of the "Minions."
In Utah, if a Police Officer is conducting some type of investigation, you need to indentify yourself when asked to by the Officer. If you don't, you could be looking at a charge and a trip to jail. In my personal opinion the Officer was conducting an investigation to check on the legality of the citizen carrying a firearm.
If you feel you need to ask if you are required to give your information to the Officer, ask with respect and be as courteous as possible. If you feel your rights were infringed on, ask for a Supervisor and/or take the issue up in court.
I won't even go into the actions of the friend or, the group that was allowed to gather way to close to what was going on.
In Utah, if a Police Officer is conducting some type of investigation, you need to indentify yourself when asked to by the Officer. If you don't, you could be looking at a charge and a trip to jail. In my personal opinion the Officer was conducting an investigation to check on the legality of the citizen carrying a firearm.
If you feel you need to ask if you are required to give your information to the Officer, ask with respect and be as courteous as possible. If you feel your rights were infringed on, ask for a Supervisor and/or take the issue up in court.
I won't even go into the actions of the friend or, the group that was allowed to gather way to close to what was going on.
What's that phrase? Something like "a right not exercised is lost." Apparently Mr. Ridley had his facts down, and was only required to tell the officer (verbally) his name, and probably his address (which he did). I don't see anything wrong with that.
Yes, he could have shown the officer his driver's license and maybe cut the incident shorter. But if he was willing to spend the time educating the officer, hey, that's not a bad thing to do. Some might feel he should have totally complied with everything the officer (illegally) requested, and straighten things out later. But it wasn't an emergency situation, so why not observe the law right then and there?
Nor do I think it was wrong to stay on his cell phone and record the situation. Both Mr. Ridley and the officer involved were both courteous to one another, and after all, the officer was on his radio/phone/whatever at times too.
Mr. Ridley's friend was about two nickels short of a quarter though. His behavior was totally wrong.
Utah laws are not New Hampshire laws, and I'm very willing to follow the law as it is here.
Yes, he could have shown the officer his driver's license and maybe cut the incident shorter. But if he was willing to spend the time educating the officer, hey, that's not a bad thing to do. Some might feel he should have totally complied with everything the officer (illegally) requested, and straighten things out later. But it wasn't an emergency situation, so why not observe the law right then and there?
Nor do I think it was wrong to stay on his cell phone and record the situation. Both Mr. Ridley and the officer involved were both courteous to one another, and after all, the officer was on his radio/phone/whatever at times too.
Mr. Ridley's friend was about two nickels short of a quarter though. His behavior was totally wrong.
Utah laws are not New Hampshire laws, and I'm very willing to follow the law as it is here.
It is true that the CFP information is on the DL information. It will either show "Found" or "Not Found". In my personal opinion there's nothing wrong with mentioning you have a permit, but not carrying. If the Officer see's the CFP information he might ask you anyway.apollosmith said:That's my understanding also, that in Utah, if you're asked for ID, you'd better show it. But, you don't have to provide any other information or say anything else, UNLESS you are a CFP holder AND are carrying you must inform them of this.
A question: What if you are NOT carrying, should you still tell the officer you are a CFP holder?
In my concealed carry course, the instructor said that you should even if you're not carrying because the cop will run your drivers license, see that you are a CFP holder (it this true?), and then wonder where your gun is. He said that telling them up front will diffuse any situations.
Thoughts?
Ususally my question to someone who has a permit and not carrying is, "Why aren't you carrying?"
I never notify an officer if I am just standing talking to him/her, but if pulled over and carrying I always do. Of course, much depends upon the demeanor of the officer too. For some, regardless of how up front you are as to whether you are or are not carrying, they will go way overboard and do just about anything to insult you, or abuse you.
That was how it was on my last stop with Sheriffs' Deputy C. Taylor. He was inconsiderate, rude and abusive--and all that before I could even politely ask him what the problem was. Then when he noticed my NRA sticker (on the side of my rear passenger window) he proceeded to berate me for knowing my rights simply because I had a NRA sticker on my vehicle? He was very rude & unprofessional. Then to top things off, after I received the ticket (which I did deserve and did not try to get out of) he tried to be all buddy buddy, and proceeded to talk about how much he believes in gun rights. lol
Lets just face it, regardless of whether we say we are carrying or not often matters little when you have egotistical maniacs on the force. I thought the psych tests were supposed to weed them out.
Anyhow, I always inform, that is the law and I try to obey that to the letter. :shock:
That was how it was on my last stop with Sheriffs' Deputy C. Taylor. He was inconsiderate, rude and abusive--and all that before I could even politely ask him what the problem was. Then when he noticed my NRA sticker (on the side of my rear passenger window) he proceeded to berate me for knowing my rights simply because I had a NRA sticker on my vehicle? He was very rude & unprofessional. Then to top things off, after I received the ticket (which I did deserve and did not try to get out of) he tried to be all buddy buddy, and proceeded to talk about how much he believes in gun rights. lol
Lets just face it, regardless of whether we say we are carrying or not often matters little when you have egotistical maniacs on the force. I thought the psych tests were supposed to weed them out.
Anyhow, I always inform, that is the law and I try to obey that to the letter. :shock:
Cinhil said:Lets just face it, regardless of whether we say we are carrying or not often matters little when you have egotistical maniacs on the force.quote]
Let's face it no matter how nice or polite the Officer is, it doesn't matter if the citizen you are dealing with is an egotistical maniac. :wink:
Hunter said: Let's face it no matter how nice or polite the Officer is, it doesn't matter if the citizen you are dealing with is an egotistical maniac.
This was after my comment on egotistical officers. I did forget to mention that I was being polite & courteous that day. But that made little difference to the officer I mentioned. He was discourteous & rude from the moment he approached. He had no reason to be. I obeyed every "order" he gave, and he never was polite about anything.
As for being egotistical myself, no, I was polite & courteous the whole time. The officer was impolite, rude and was egotistical in his manners, and behaviors.
This was after my comment on egotistical officers. I did forget to mention that I was being polite & courteous that day. But that made little difference to the officer I mentioned. He was discourteous & rude from the moment he approached. He had no reason to be. I obeyed every "order" he gave, and he never was polite about anything.
As for being egotistical myself, no, I was polite & courteous the whole time. The officer was impolite, rude and was egotistical in his manners, and behaviors.
It wasn't meant towards any one person in particular, it just goes both ways. There are "egotisical maniacs" in every walk of life. I guess the on who is acting like a "egotistical maniac" is in the eye of the beholder. There's two sides to every story, even when a "egotistical maniac" or "minion" is involved. :wink:Cinhil said:Hunter said: Let's face it no matter how nice or polite the Officer is, it doesn't matter if the citizen you are dealing with is an egotistical maniac.
This was after my comment on egotistical officers. I did forget to mention that I was being polite & courteous that day. But that made little difference to the officer I mentioned. He was discourteous & rude from the moment he approached. He had no reason to be. I obeyed every "order" he gave, and he never was polite about anything.
As for being egotistical myself, no, I was polite & courteous the whole time. The officer was impolite, rude and was egotistical in his manners, and behaviors.
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
- This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Utah Guns Forum
A forum community dedicated to firearm owners and enthusiasts in Utah. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
