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Since I have a concealed permit I haven't given much thought as to how one would legally open carry without a permit. I came accross this on the BCI website and it made me wonder how do you open carry in a vehicle, or can you legally open carry in a vehicle without a permit.

It is lawful to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit if: the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use.
http://des.utah.gov/bci/LAWcarry.html

The unloaded part I get: just don't have a round in the chamber.
Securely encased seems vague.
However, Not readily accessible for immediate use seems to disqualify carrying on your hip or anywhere else on your person. :huh:
 

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This was answered in previous posts.

I carried occasionally for years knowing the law concerning guns before I received my CCW.

Essentially it comes down to this; If there has been no law outlawing something then it is not against the law to do so. Once laws are made prohibiting or allowing something then that rule must be followed. Since the legislature has declared that if you haven't got a CCW then you must have an empty round under the hammer and nothing in the following chamber for revolvers. For Semi-Automatic weapons this means you may have your magazine inserted but may not carry with a round in the chamber. In either instance they have more or less said that it must require two actions before you may fire the weapon.

But the important thing is that open carry has not been outlawed in Utah, therefore anyone who may otherwise lawfully do so may carry in the open provided they follow these simple rules.
I hope that helps.

As for the not readily accessible part for carrying in a car or vehicle, I believe you must have it in a manufacturers case, or in the back seat or trunk, just not in the open and accessible for ready use while driving unless you have a ccw then you may carry on your person fully loaded. Pages 55 & 56 of Utah Gun Laws by Mitch Vilos addresses this issue. Or See U. C. A. 76-10-505 & 76-10-506 (U. C. A. means Utah Code Annotated if I remember correctly).
 

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To clarify Cinhil's post (I don't think Cinhil's post was inaccurate; just that there are 2 separate aspects to carrying in a car without a CCP and I think his post was bit too blurry in those regards)...

While in a car, without a CCP the weapon:
1) MUST ALWAYS BE UTAH-"UNLOADED" ( 76-10-502, 76-10-505 ).

ADDITIONALLY, without a CCP the weapon can be EITHER:
2a) Conceal-carried, IF the gun is "securely encased" and NOT readily available for immediate use ( 76-10-501.2(b), 76-10-504.1-2 ). For the definition of "securely encased and not readily available for immediate use", see 76-10-501.18 in the same link.

- OR -

2b) Open-carried, IF the gun is in PLAIN VIEW ( 76-10-501.2(a) ) -- and let's not forget, that means AT ALL TIMES... a shirt or jacket accidentally covering it, or it sliding off the seat during a stop and being hidden under the dash is *NOT* going to be "ok" -- you must ENSURE the gun is ALWAYS in plain view.

P.S.: Hopefully I condensed all the pertinent information as accurately and as simply as possible for you -- if anyone sees where I erred, please remind me!

(As always, nobody here is an attorney... so, take all of this with a grain of salt, research it yourself, be sure of the laws AS YOU UNDERSTAND THEM, NOT AS I DO -- for all you know, I'm reading laws for Bolivia or something)
 

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bane said:
Without a CCP the weapon:
1) MUST ALWAYS BE UTAH-"UNLOADED" anytime you are not on your own REAL property even if you are in your own car ( 76-10-502, 76-10-505 ).
You sure about that?

That's what we always say, but I don't think it's what the law says. What the law says is

(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
This issue came up last weekend, camping in the Uintas with my brother-in-law, who does not have a CFP. He wanted to know if he could carry his .357 revolver fully loaded while we went for a hike. It's not "in or on a vehicle", nor "on any public street", nor "in a posted prohibited area", so I said he should be fine unless someone wants to try to say a trail is a "public street".

That got me thinking (which is always a dangerous thing :) )

What is the definition of a "public street"? A grocery store? Seems pretty clear that it's neither public, nor a street. In a mall? In a restaurant? How about a city park? It's public, but it's not a street. What about walking down the sidewalk next to the street? I found a couple of definitions of "sidewalk" in the law that describe it as the "part of the street ... intended for the use of pedestrians", so I think sidewalks are probably off-limits.

It seems to me that it's perfectly legal to carry fully loaded without a CFP as long as you (a) stay out/off of vehicles and (b) stay off the street (which includes sidewalks).

Making use of your right to carry fully-loaded in the grocery store without a CFP might be impractical, because it would mean handling the gun to load it after you get out of your car and to unload it before getting back in, but as far as I can tell from the law, you CAN do it.

Anyone who does should probably expect trouble, though. The handful of police encounters reported here and on OCDO show that even the police who mostly understand the laws believe that no CFP == must be unloaded. For that matter, the Attorney General has even made the same statement. Unless I'm missing something, though, that's NOT what the law says.
 

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(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
This issue came up last weekend, camping in the Uintas with my brother-in-law, who does not have a CFP. He wanted to know if he could carry his .357 revolver fully loaded while we went for a hike. It's not "in or on a vehicle", nor "on any public street", nor "in a posted prohibited area", so I said he should be fine unless someone wants to try to say a trail is a "public street".
http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/title10/10_0a004.html

10-15-3. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(1) (a) "Intersection street" means any street which meets or crosses a pedestrian mall at a mall intersection but includes only those portions thereof on either side of the mall intersection which lie between the mall intersection and the first intersection of the intersecting street with a public street or highway open to vehicular traffic. If any portion of a pedestrian mall terminates on a street at a place thereon other than at a place of intersection with a public street or highway open to vehicular traffic, such intersecting street shall also include that portion of any street which lies between such place of termination and the first intersection of such street with the public street or highway open to vehicular traffic.
(b) "Intersecting street" also includes any other street or portion of a street which the legislative body declares to be such by resolution.
(2) "Legislative body" means the legislative body of the municipality.
(3) "Mall intersection" means any intersection of a street constituting a part of a pedestrian mall with any street which intersection is itself part of a pedestrian mall.
(4) "Municipality" includes every city or town within this state.
(5) "Pedestrian mall" means one or more streets or portions thereof, on which vehicular traffic is, or is to be, restricted in whole or in part and which is, or is to be, used exclusively or primarily for pedestrian travel.
(6) "Street" means any public road, street, highway, alley, lane, court, way, or place of any nature open to the use of the public, excluding state highways.
Amended by Chapter 10, 1997 General Session

TJ
 

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Good point, TJ. That might seem to exclude city parks. I'm not so sure about private property, however.

Also, there's a question about whether or not that definition of street applies to Title 76, since it says:

10-15-3. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
Particularly since that law about pedestrian malls (10-15) is considerably newer than the law restricting loaded carry.

Edit: Upon further reflection, it occurs to me that interpreting "street" to include ANY area open to the public would mean that it's illegal to carry fully-loaded while hunting on public land, unless you have a CFP. So I think it would be very hard to argue that "street" means any area open to the public.

Edit #2: That interpretation of "street" would also make nonsense out of many of the traffic regulations.
 

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swillden said:
Edit: Upon further reflection, it occurs to me that interpreting "street" to include ANY area open to the public would mean that it's illegal to carry fully-loaded while hunting on public land, unless you have a CFP. So I think it would be very hard to argue that "street" means any area open to the public.
Aren't there specific provisions for hunting? I'll research further and post what I find. If I rembember correctly, there was a specific section that referred to hunters and firearms if you have a valid hunting license and are in a hunting area.

gf
 

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glock fan said:
swillden said:
Edit: Upon further reflection, it occurs to me that interpreting "street" to include ANY area open to the public would mean that it's illegal to carry fully-loaded while hunting on public land, unless you have a CFP. So I think it would be very hard to argue that "street" means any area open to the public.
Aren't there specific provisions for hunting? I'll research further and post what I find. If I rembember correctly, there was a specific section that referred to hunters and firearms if you have a valid hunting license and are in a hunting area.
There is (76-10-512), but it provided exemptions only from 76-10-509 and 76-10-509.4(1). Those laws are prohibitions of handgun possession by minors.

Unless there's another hunting-related exemption that I'm missing? I don't think so.
 

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While the current talk regarding what is meant by "public street" is interesting (and a good exercise!), I would like to point out the nature of the question from the perspective of the OP. There is certainly something to "public street" questions, but my post was directed towards the OP who asked how to legally carry in a car without a CFP... since we don't drive into places like grocery stores, malls, and grassy areas in parks, my post is accurate (I believe). :wink:

(I have edited my original post to correct this confusion and make it clear my reply only applies to car-carry.)
 

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bane said:
While the current talk regarding what is meant by "public street" is interesting (and a good exercise!), I would like to point out the nature of the question from the perspective of the OP. There is certainly something to "public street" questions, but my post was directed towards the OP who asked how to legally carry in a car without a CFP... since we don't drive into places like grocery stores, malls, and grassy areas in parks, my post is accurate (I believe).
Sorry, my bad for jumping into the middle of a thread without reading the context. I only had a little less than 24 hours at home and UCC has gotten busy enough that it's tough to catch up on nearly a week's posts!
 

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swillden said:
There is (76-10-512), but it provided exemptions only from 76-10-509 and 76-10-509.4(1). Those laws are prohibitions of handgun possession by minors.

Unless there's another hunting-related exemption that I'm missing? I don't think so.
I believe what GlockFan is referencing is 76-10-504.4, but that addresses the "concealment" question not the "loaded" one. After looking through the applicable code again, I don't find any other references for hunting nor concerning the "loaded" question.

I haven't read the hunting laws but I suspect the hunting laws are pretty clear about where and when you can be "loaded" and I would suspect a reasonable Judge would realize to apply the more specific hunting laws rather than the more general criminal ones if you are in fact engaged in hunting.

I also think that a reasonable Judge would find that 10-15-3.6 applies in a VERY GENERAL WAY to all places generally open to the public... which would include grocery stores and malls but might not include places like Costco and certainly would not include places like your neighbor's house.

Regarding the interpretation of "street" in 10-15-3.6 and applying it to the traffic laws... I don't think that equates. This definition of "street" is said to apply to 10-15 but it says nothing about applying that same definition to the traffic codes.

While it certainly seems to be some gray areas, I think it's important to consider the point of view of the average reasonable Judge and act accordingly. If we find gray areas, we should move to get clarification via the Legislature. But taking the issue into a court, I think a reasonable Judge would read all of these sections together to come to a GENERAL interpretation of what he thinks the Legislature INTENDED... and he would certainly give a LOT of weight to the USAG's opinion.

And I think it's reasonable to ASSUME that the Legislature's INTENT was to restrict loaded-carry in public places in GENERAL.
 

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swillden said:
Sorry, my bad for jumping into the middle of a thread without reading the context. I only had a little less than 24 hours at home and UCC has gotten busy enough that it's tough to catch up on nearly a week's posts!
Oh please, no need to apologize... it was a valid point, given the way I'd worded my post originally. I just wanted to bring clarification to the issue so that we didn't leave the OP confused as we changed gears.
 

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bane said:
I haven't read the hunting laws but I suspect the hunting laws are pretty clear about where and when you can be "loaded" and I would suspect a reasonable Judge would realize to apply the more specific hunting laws rather than the more general criminal ones if you are in fact engaged in hunting.
I looked a little at the regulations, and did some general searches for laws that included "hunting" and "firearm" or "hunting" and "loaded", and didn't find anything like that. I don't think there are any specific regulations governing how/where/when you can load your firearm when hunting. It appears to me that the law just relies on the general prohibition against loaded carry in a vehicle or on a street, and the normal rules about where you can discharge (not from or across a road, not within 600 feet of a building without the owner's permission, etc.). I'd research it more, but I have a meeting right now, and after that I'm off to the hills again. If someone else doesn't look into it, I'll do it when I get back.

bane said:
I also think that a reasonable Judge would find that 10-15-3.6 applies in a VERY GENERAL WAY to all places generally open to the public... which would include grocery stores and malls but might not include places like Costco and certainly would not include places like your neighbor's house.

Regarding the interpretation of "street" in 10-15-3.6 and applying it to the traffic laws... I don't think that equates. This definition of "street" is said to apply to 10-15 but it says nothing about applying that same definition to the traffic codes.
What's the difference? If Title 10 chapter 15's definitions can be applied to Title 76, why can't they be applied to Title 41?

I e-mailed my sister-in-law (an attorney) to ask how that sort of thing works, and if a court would apply 10-15's definitions to 76-10. I'll let you know what she says when I hear back.
 

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On the original question, I do recall reading in Mitch Vilos 2nd edition about a case in Utah where a conviction held because having a newspaper on top of the gun on the seat constituted "concealed". You have to be very careful that if you carry a Utah-unloaded weapon (without a CFP) in your vehicle that it is always in plain sight.
 

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swillden said:
What's the difference? If Title 10 chapter 15's definitions can be applied to Title 76, why can't they be applied to Title 41?

I e-mailed my sister-in-law (an attorney) to ask how that sort of thing works, and if a court would apply 10-15's definitions to 76-10. I'll let you know what she says when I hear back.
No, you're right. I wasn't paying attention to the different sections well enough and was drawing on 10-15's def's and thinking someone else who first cited them had already shown that they applied to 76 (I assumed there was something clearly stating such). Having said that, I believe the remainder of my view is nullified. Other than I still think this is too gray of an area to be testing in court. That is, unless you first get an attorney to research it and promise to go to bat with you.

I really doubt def's can be applied across-the-board to every Title in the book; if they could there would be no point in having separate sections of definitions in each Title nor would it make sense to include phrases in the code that are worded like "You can't do 'A', as defined in Title 'B', unless.. blah, blah, blah". The fact that you frequently see such phrasing in the code suggests, to me at least, that borrowing definitions from other Titles is only permitted when the Legislature includes specific allowance for it.

But it will be interesting to see what your sister says!
 

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Jeff Johnson said:
On the original question, I do recall reading in Mitch Vilos 2nd edition about a case in Utah where a conviction held because having a newspaper on top of the gun on the seat constituted "concealed". You have to be very careful that if you carry a Utah-unloaded weapon (without a CFP) in your vehicle that it is always in plain sight.
Exactly. (course, that's only if you are OPEN-CARRYING in the vehicle. If you are CONCEAL-CARRYING, you must follow the rules regarding having it inaccessible).
 

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bane said:
ADDITIONALLY, without a CCP the weapon can be EITHER:
2a) Conceal-carried, IF the gun is "securely encased" and NOT readily available for immediate use ( 76-10-501.2(b), 76-10-504.1-2 ). For the definition of "securely encased and not readily available for immediate use", see 76-10-501.18 in the same link.
FYI, securely encased does not mean concealed. Wasn't sure if that is what you meant or not.
 

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xRapidDavex said:
bane said:
ADDITIONALLY, without a CCP the weapon can be EITHER:
2a) Conceal-carried, IF the gun is "securely encased" and NOT readily available for immediate use ( 76-10-501.2(b), 76-10-504.1-2 ). For the definition of "securely encased and not readily available for immediate use", see 76-10-501.18 in the same link.
FYI, securely encased does not mean concealed. Wasn't sure if that is what you meant or not.
Huh -- I was actually talking in the opposite direction that I think you took it though. What I was saying is that without a permit you can carry OPEN -OR- CONCEALED in a car... and then delineated how to do both... in the case of concealed, it must be securely encased and not readily available for immediate use... from your angle I think what you are saying is that you can carry 'securely encased' and NOT be carrying concealed, but that is not what I was saying.

However, for the record, how would one carry 'securely encased' without also concealing the firearm??? I only ask b/c I am not aware of how I could about doing that.
 

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Without a CFP, you cannot legally conceal a weapon anywhere in public or in your vehicle. However, you may securely encase your firearm in your vehicle (locked case), which by definition of law will not be considered concealed at that point.

You would securely encase your firearm to be in accordance with the Fedral School Zone Act which states that anyone without a CFP MUST securely encase and fully unload their firearm if they are within 1,000 feet of a school and other certified institutions where children are being watched (daycare, etc.).
 

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xRapidDavex said:
Without a CFP, you cannot legally conceal a weapon anywhere in public or in your vehicle. However, you may securely encase your firearm in your vehicle (locked case), which by definition of law will not be considered concealed at that point.
Right. But now we're really just playing with words. I understand the important distinction for purposes of going to court; but for purposes of just understanding what you can and cannot do, encasing your weapon is concealing it legally for all intents and purposes. The explanation I provided seems pretty sufficient in conveying the intent of the law (that you must securely encase it and not have it readily accessible, if you are to conceal it in any way whatsoever).

Again, I understand your point -- but I think it's just muddying the water.
 
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