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I came across this e-mail today and thought it was interesting. I am not a history buff, nor do I play one on TV :wink: , but does anyone know if the origin is true? Your thoughts?

How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their
new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish
history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this
to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000
years earlier:

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply
cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time
that voters discover they can vote themselves generous
gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the
candidates who promise the most benefits from the public
treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always
followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest
civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about
200 years'. During those 200 years, those nations
always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage'
 

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17 years 2 months and 6 days... j/k.
I've heard this before, and think it's cool how history repeats it's self.
 

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This is exactly why the United States of America was set up NOT as a democracy, but as a constitutional republic. Our Founding Fathers knew the dangers that are inherent with democracy. Unfortunately, we fell into the democracy trap not long after the Constitution was created and ratified, and you see where we are now. Alexander Tyler was exactly right. I wish so badly that we could get back to our roots as a true constitutional republic. It's time for a new revolution. :bat:
 

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One line from the essay that I linked to in another topic is appropriate here:

The republican theory is predicated on the stark contrast between mere democracy, where people are motivated by selfish personal interest, and a republic, where civic virtue, both in common citizen and leadership, tames selfishness on behalf of the common good.
Any republic is a democracy, but citizens of true republics understand civic virtue and sacrifice for the common good.

Yeah, we definitely seem to be headed rapidly for "mere democracy" status.
 

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swillden said:
One line from the essay that I linked to in another topic is appropriate here:

The republican theory is predicated on the stark contrast between mere democracy, where people are motivated by selfish personal interest, and a republic, where civic virtue, both in common citizen and leadership, tames selfishness on behalf of the common good.
Any republic is a democracy, but citizens of true republics understand civic virtue and sacrifice for the common good.

Yeah, we definitely seem to be headed rapidly for "mere democracy" status.
Oh, we've long passed into "mere democracy" status, and we're going full-speed-ahead into socialism at this point. :disgusted:
 

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utahmomof4 said:
Oh, we've long passed into "mere democracy" status, and we're going full-speed-ahead into socialism at this point. :disgusted:
AMEN!
 

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utahmomof4 said:
swillden said:
One line from the essay that I linked to in another topic is appropriate here:

The republican theory is predicated on the stark contrast between mere democracy, where people are motivated by selfish personal interest, and a republic, where civic virtue, both in common citizen and leadership, tames selfishness on behalf of the common good.
Any republic is a democracy, but citizens of true republics understand civic virtue and sacrifice for the common good.

Yeah, we definitely seem to be headed rapidly for "mere democracy" status.
Oh, we've long passed into "mere democracy" status, and we're going full-speed-ahead into socialism at this point. :disgusted:
:agree:

If you look back over the last 100 years you will see *HUGE* changes in our nation's systems which accelerated this shift. One often pointed to as the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank in ~1913. Another one was the permanent acceptance of the war tax in about ~1933, what we now call the "income tax". There are quite a few others, a huge number of which happened in our grandparents and great-grandparents days and were well in place before most of here were even born.

In my PoliSci class I'm taking right now I am surprised at how many of my fellow students agree that supporting people's "negative rights" (like, the rights to free speech, to be armed, and freedom of religion) is not enough -- they think that in order for a person to be TRULY free we must support their so-called "positive rights" (like, the "rights" to a free education, to a good job, to guaranteed healthcare, etc). I don't necessarily disagree with a few of these ideas but I think it's horrible we call them "rights" and place them on that level of acceptance. This is a telling observation, for me, of exactly where our society is at: more than half of my class believes these are legitimate "rights" and don't seem to comprehend the inherent discrepancy between violating one person's negative rights in order to assert another person's positive rights.

It's ridiculous and sad... and it's obvious to me that our nation is already largely socialist. For anyone who has read Marx's Communist Manifesto (or at least his step-by-step plan of the communist revolution) I'm sure you have noticed that the vast majority of his points are already well accepted either in full or in part right here in America.

:fever:
 

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The United states of America will not fall, It will be rebaptized.

Baptism by fire, by war, and by blood.

The same way the nation was forged, it will be reborn.

That's what I believe.

It's just a matter of when.
 

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thx997303 said:
The United states of America will not fall, It will be rebaptized.

Baptism by fire, by war, and by blood.

The same way the nation was forged, it will be reborn.

That's what I believe.

It's just a matter of when.
If it gets that bad, before it gets better, I will leave.
 

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bane said:
If it gets that bad, before it gets better, I will leave.
I wouldn't be able to sugar coat this, but that's just cowardice and anti-patriotism. You would rather give up and run away then fight to for your country? That's a terrible shame.

There is nowhere better out there...
 

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thx997303 said:
The United states of America will not fall, It will be rebaptized.

Baptism by fire, by war, and by blood.

The same way the nation was forged, it will be reborn.

That's what I believe.

It's just a matter of when.
I believe that, too. I just hope that, when the time comes, there will be enough true patriots with enough intestinal fortitude to actually rise up and pay the price. I'm afraid that we (society) have been so conditioned for socialism for so long that there will not be enough of a majority with the courage, fortitude, and conviction that our Founders had to truly effect a rebirth. I hope I'm wrong.

I do believe, however, that it is going to have to get a lot worse than it is right now in order to awaken enough of those would-be patriots out of conditioned passivity.
 

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L'attente said:
bane said:
If it gets that bad, before it gets better, I will leave.
I wouldn't be able to sugar coat this, but that's just cowardice and anti-patriotism. You would rather give up and run away then fight to for your country? That's a terrible shame.

There is nowhere better out there...
Y'know, you can say what you want to, that's your God-given 1st-Amendment Right... which I already served my 8 years for doing 2 overseas deployments to the Gulf and one down to South America -- I don't know about you, of course, but I've already shown my country my patriotism and bravery. I already sacrificed the first 8 years of my marriage, of our most fertile years, fighting for my country and our freedoms. If you've served, you'll know you should be swallowing your tongue right now. If you haven't, let me help you out: you should be swallowing your tongue right now.

I think you should learn your target before you decide to condemn me.

It's interesting, Time magazine had an article out in this week's issue that talked a lot about Patriotism. One of the main arguments the author put forward was that our love for our Nation should be viewed in a similar way as our love for our Family... love 'em or hate 'em, they're still ours and we should hold to them dearly despite their wrongs. I disagree. My family is my family not because of blood but because of principles. We don't have to share every principal, of course, but we have to share the most important and vital ones or there is no point in being family. I would not remain family with a cold-blooded murderer, for example. It is often said that blood does not a parent make. Yeah, well, shared ancestry does not a good nation make, either. If a modern-day Hitler were to take over this country and we became the new Nazi-Germany, would you stay just b/c it *USED* to be Free America??? I know I wouldn't.

Our nation was born, not so much on common history or common peoples but on common PRINCIPLES. This is a nation based on IDEALS not on blood lines or traditions. If this country ever completely abandons it's ideals, it is no longer worthy of it's nation-hood. Good people can go anywhere in the world and start a new America b/c America is not based on geography or traditions but on VALUES that can be placed anywhere in the world.

My moving to another country would not mean that I am abandoning the ideals which made America -- by denying the ideals our nation was born on, it would be America who left me not I who left America -- before I would leave, America would have long been over anyways.

I wonder how your claim that I would be an unpatriotic coward if I were to someday leave America would hold up if you applied to our revered Founding Forefathers... they too left a land they felt had long since ceased to be deserving of their patriotism and headed to a new land in search of a new place to raise their standards on. Were THEY "unpatriotic cowards" for leaving their home country of Great Britain and searching for a place to erect a better life??? More to the point: were YOUR ANCESTORS (who, I'm assuming, were not Native Americans) "unpatriotic cowards" for leaving their homeland and coming to America in search of a better life based on better ideals??? Be careful of your condemnation of me, you might just be condemning yourself.)

Like I said, you have every right to have your opinion -- but your condemnation of me reveals that you don't know what you are talking about.

P.S.: I should add that I used strong wording in my reply to you not to inflame you or incite this discussion. I think it's a great topic and I certainly don't want to start a flame war over it. The point was to show you that such heavy-handed tactics can be hurtful and make people angry -- whether you felt so or not on my reply, I don't know; but I did when I read yours. I also don't mean to be OVERLY-critical b/c I have said things on the 'net that were hurtful to other people too. We all do it from time to time. I hope you feel a bit offended by my reply. But I also hope you realize the real message of my reply and get past the intentional attempt to make you feel that way. In other words, we can be friends still -- I just think your OP needs some serious attitude-adjustment. Other than that, I have now expressed my anger and feel much better. I hope you can also get past any you may/may not be feeling and we can continue to talk about the original topic (or the one you brought up, if you still wish to continue it). One last observation... I noticed by your signature that you are LDS... so here's something extra to think about... didn't Lehi's family leave the land of THEIR forefathers in search of a better land and a better life???
 

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Fix it or leave it?

I'd say that mostly depends on what the rest of the citizens want. If most people are happy with the way it is, or even just apathetic, then fixing it peacefully isn't going to work, and trying to fix it violently is wrong.

I don't believe we've gotten to the point that the system is so broken that it can't be fixed from within. Maybe I'm an optimist. I do have to say, though, that if it gets to the point where insurrection is the only way to fix it, I'm not confident that there are enough of the right kind of people to make it work. Unless that changes, I'd probably want to hightail it for a freer place.

The only problem is, I don't know that a freer place exists. I shake my head at people who go around quoting Lee Greenwood's line "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free", because freedom is under serious assault here, and we've already lost a lot.

But I really don't see a better option.
 

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swillden said:
Fix it or leave it?

I'd say that mostly depends on what the rest of the citizens want. If most people are happy with the way it is, or even just apathetic, then fixing it peacefully isn't going to work, and trying to fix it violently is wrong.

I don't believe we've gotten to the point that the system is so broken that it can't be fixed from within. Maybe I'm an optimist. I do have to say, though, that if it gets to the point where insurrection is the only way to fix it, I'm not confident that there are enough of the right kind of people to make it work. Unless that changes, I'd probably want to hightail it for a freer place.

The only problem is, I don't know that a freer place exists. I shake my head at people who go around quoting Lee Greenwood's line "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free", because freedom is under serious assault here, and we've already lost a lot.

But I really don't see a better option.
Yep, I agree with everything you said here. I specifically didn't outline where that future line would be b/c I honestly don't know -- it's one of those things where I think you never know where the line is, for you personally, until you wake up one day with a serious headache that just won't go away. I agree, I think things are fixable -- optimism is important when there still exists a chance -- but I think the odds of full-recovery are pretty slim. I'm still willing to try, though.

As far as a "freer" place... I don't know... I've heard good things about a few of the smaller less-known european countries. I haven't really looked into them, so I don't actually know -- I've just heard good things. I would also wonder if a large group of like-minded individuals all agreed to separate to the "BEST" small country and sort of dominate it via their numbers that the remainder of the desired changes might be able to be affected pretty quickly. But that's a long way off and a very uncertain future to be considering right now.
 

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There really is no better no option, and I don't know that there ever will be. Of course, we can't just sit idly by and expect it to remain the land of the free and the home of the brave, either. If we don't get back to constitutional principles both individually and collectively, we will lose it. I heard on the radio this morning that the certified voter turnout for last month's primary election here in Utah was barely over 7% - the lowest turnout on record. That's pretty pathetic - and that's the kind of thing that is going to allow our precious freedoms, or whatever we have left, to continue to be eroded away. If we're not going to stand up and be counted in something as basic as the ballot box, then we will end up with what we deserve. Some will say, "Well, there's just nobody decent to vote for." I say, there's always SOMEBODY (I can, about 99.7% of the time vote for the Constitution party candidate with a clear conscience), even if you have to write somebody in. Oh sure, the candidate of your choice might not win, and the electoral college ensures that Utah's electorate votes are going to go to whomever the Republican candidate is, but you cannot use any of those as an excuse to forfeit your RIGHT to participate, to have a voice, however futile it may seem. A right unexercised is a right lost.

The only thing that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing.
 

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Lori, I couldn't agree more. Getting involved in our political system is absolutely crucial. But while voting is important, it's not enough. We need to be getting involved more actively at the grass roots, doing a bit more than merely voting. We need to "pick a cause" and engage it way more frequently than every couple of years. Of course, 2A rights should be a big cause that probably every one here should be supporting, but I'm sure each one of us has at least one more additional cause. If we all just vowed to target bad judges by tracking what judges do and moving hard to get them removed when they are poor judges, a lot of the wrong in this country would get righted pretty quickly.

But that sort of thing typically takes a lot of work -- and the bourgeoisie keeps us poor proletariat pretty busy with our petty lives and tempted with all of the awesome entertainment that surrounds us. And that, frankly, is the problem. As far as I know of history, it was the same problem of the Romans. And history usually repeats itself. And from what I read, it didn't happen from a single external or internal cause as we usually think it was. It was from a series of gradually increasingly stupid decisions. From ridiculously mis-managed public works projects to managing society poorly enough that large revolts were fostered to taking the "easy route" all too often (like burning great statues just to make new ones instead of mining new resources; or demolishing historic buildings instead of repairing them just to build new ones instead). It's pretty telling when you reflect on all of the ridiculously mis-managed public works projects we engage in, the huge mismanagement of society we have engineered where revolts do in fact take place when someone feels they aren't getting their share of the pie, and of course Americans are notorious for destroying the old for no better reason than to build new.

Should we hope and try to buck history??? Yes, absolutely. Do I think we will succeed??? I wouldn't go to Vegas on it.

The good news is that somewhere, if not here, eventually, good men will rise again and good government will be reborn. Sure it took about 1000 years since the last time, but it still happened.

The Romans fell for much the same things we are engaging in. Maybe history will be different, I don't know.
 

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I'm with you, Bane. It definitely takes more than voting. I'm just saying that if 93% of us can't even get off our lazy arses to do at least THAT much, then we are fooling ourselves if we think we're going to be able to accomplish anything greater. We've gotta start somewhere.
 
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