Utah Guns Forum banner
81 - 100 of 115 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,757 Posts
Spencer R. said:
divegeek said:
My opinion is that since the brethren have asked us not to carry at church, both as a matter of policy and as a matter of obedience to law (a law which they supported), then as good church members we should be obedient and not carry at church. This may be a way in which we're being asked not to rely on "the arm of the flesh
I know all about the posting in the newspapers and general church policies, but has general authority spoken to this issue? (like one of the 12 or 70?)
Other than the original announcement letter, which I believe was signed by the first presidency, and the long-standing presence of the prohibition on firearms found in the Church Handbook of Instructions, I don't think so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,725 Posts
I first want to say that I my intent is not to hurt or offend the LDS church or it's members. As a Christian and Utah transplant, this is purely an outsiders perspective. Living in Utah, you have to realize comes with it's own lingo and culture that is not found in most of the country. I enjoy much of the culture and atmosphere--I bring it up only as my point of reference.

I have seen a lot of people on the board boycott businesses and rally against government for "taking away their RKBA". Why then is the "Don't ask/Don't tell" or "Don't talk about it" approach taken when it comes to this?

We all know that gun free zones don't work and the news bares out that churches--all religions--have had their share of violence even during a service.

I truly am not starting a war of words here. Just my observation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107 Posts
My thought would be that as Mormons believe that thier church recieves divine inspiration through its leadership, it would therefore be a defiance of "Gods will" to go against the instructions of the church leaders. Therefore Mormons put thier faith in God to protect them at church and leave the issue be, although there are still strong feelings about it.

This may be a bit blunt, but it is just my observation. Coming from a black sheep of the fold... lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
butcher said:
I guess the only real solution is to find a ward where the bishop has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy!
ALL wards have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, as far as I know.

I have NEVER heard the firearms policy mentioned in my ward in the past 9 years I have been going to it, and would have no idea of the church's position were it not for this board.

As far as what the bishop knows or doesn't, me feeling has always been: Why would you put your bishop (whom you should respect) into a difficult and awkward position for your personal comfort? The bishop may (personally) have no problem with it, but as a leader in a church that has a certain policy, he should be expected to uphold the policy of the church. Asking him "permission" to do something that you know goes against official church policy only puts him in a difficult position so you can absolve yourself of the guilt from making a choice to go against that policy.

If you want to carry in church in spite of the official position, do it, and carry the responsibility for your own choice as well. No one's going to frisk you at the door, or even ask you if you're carrying. If you conceal carefully and responsibly, they won't even know - unless you have to use it.

TriciaDodge said:
I have seen a lot of people on the board boycott businesses and rally against government for "taking away their RKBA". Why then is the "Don't ask/Don't tell" or "Don't talk about it" approach taken when it comes to this?
Honestly, the answer is that it's far easier to give up a cheeseburger (or whatever product a particular business sells) than it is to give up a religion which you strongly believe in.

Perhaps to illustrate, I should turn the question around and back to you: You are a Christian. Would you stop being a Christian or boycott Jesus Christ as your personal Savior if someone with authority said "Christians can't use guns"? Of course not, because being a Christian is more important to you than that.

Being Mormon (and Christian too, BTW) is too important for us to give up or boycott.

I wouldn't participate in a (hypothetical) Beto's Carne Asada Fries boycott either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,570 Posts
IndependentThinker said:
My thought would be that as Mormons believe that thier church recieves divine inspiration through its leadership, it would therefore be a defiance of "Gods will" to go against the instructions of the church leaders. Therefore Mormons put thier faith in God to protect them at church and leave the issue be, although there are still strong feelings about it.

This may be a bit blunt, but it is just my observation. Coming from a black sheep of the fold... lol.
Close (at least for me!)

I believe in God's will and His protection. I believe the leaders of the church are divinely inspired. I believe that we should listen to them.

However, I'm a military man. If a Major in my chain of command tells me to do something, I do it. If a Colonel in my chain of command tells me to do something that contradicts the Major, then the Colonel wins.

The church leaders have said they don't want guns in church. I have found NOWHERE that says the decision was divinely inspired. I think it was legally inspired. The scriptures are overflowing with instances of self defense. It flat out says that you won't be punished by God for the taking of a life to save your own (paraphrased). I do not believe that God is telling us to stay unarmed. I think that God is telling us that we, as fathers or parents, are responsible for the safety of our families. Nobody else is responsible for it.

http://lds.org/library/display/0 said:
By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families.
Since the Big Guy (tm) up top says I'm to protect my family while the lower ranks tell me that I should not do that, then I will make my choice of which route to take. I do find it slightly encouraging that it's only an 'infraction' if one is charged. I also think that the church is handling it on a case by case basis as per their guidance on how the lower leadership should handle discovering a church-goer is carrying on church property.

So, HUGE caveat. I am not a lawyer. I do not encourage people to break the law, nor does anything herein constitute any form of confession. I never said I carry in a place where it is illegal to do so.

As to TriciaDodge's question, we can't boycott the church. We believe in the church, just not this particular item that the church's leadership has passed down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,725 Posts
Good info guys.

Perhaps I should clarify and I am sorry if I was misleading. I wasn't saying to boycott church, but to bring your concerns forward and see what can be done about it. It seems that there are plenty of CCW holders in Utah and I would guess a large portion of them are LDS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,570 Posts
TriciaDodge, funny you say that. The past few days, I've been looking into exactly how to do that. I agree that the best option is to make one's voice heard. I just need to stop being lazy, find the contact information, and to go for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,290 Posts
UtahJarhead said:
TriciaDodge, funny you say that. The past few days, I've been looking into exactly how to do that. I agree that the best option is to make one's voice heard. I just need to stop being lazy, find the contact information, and to go for it.
If you find a way to contact church leadership and voice your opinion, please let me know, I would like to as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,570 Posts
Hawk87 said:
UtahJarhead said:
TriciaDodge, funny you say that. The past few days, I've been looking into exactly how to do that. I agree that the best option is to make one's voice heard. I just need to stop being lazy, find the contact information, and to go for it.
If you find a way to contact church leadership and voice your opinion, please let me know, I would like to as well.
Since I posted that last message, I've been searching like a mad man (and probably not very effectively) and cannot find contact information for anybody beyond the Stake Presidency.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,195 Posts
All you need is the building supervisor--that's it. If he is sympathetic you have no worries. If he isn't and your bishop is sympathetic you probably have no worries. But that is the route to take as the building supervisor is the responsible party for issues like this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
159 Posts
UtahJarhead said:
Since I posted that last message, I've been searching like a mad man (and probably not very effectively) and cannot find contact information for anybody beyond the Stake Presidency.
801-240-1000. That's LDS Church Headquarters switchboard. I can't tell you who you would need to ask for after that, but you should be able to tell them why you are calling and they should be able to connect you to somebody. Might not be the right person, but it should get you to somebody.

Public Affairs Department might be a good place to start. :dunno:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
I'd like to be part of an effort to make my voice heard by the church, too, but quite frankly I have dim hopes of how any such effort would be received. Once the First Presidency (or any significant authority) officially signs off on something, it's very hard to oppose them without being treated like an apostate. And the higher church leadership isn't big on taking orders from the little people (which in many cases would certainly be a bad idea). The LDS church is, for better or for worse, very much a top-down authoritarian organization that claims near-infallibility for its leaders (particularly the first presidency). In some cases this is a good thing because it makes it difficult for false doctrines to creep in at the local level and keeps the church reassuringly uniform throughout the world. Unfortunately it also gives misguided leaders a cultural inertia that is very difficult to reverse. Case in point, while in Texas I was in a stake where the stake president decided that the stake would enthusiastically (and without qualification) encourage ALL El Paso members to attend the newly constructed temple across the border in Ciudad Juarez, despite the dangers associated with that city. When a friend of mine, also a member, told the stake president that Juarez was becoming increasingly dangerous for Americans and that the drug cartels had actually put a bounty on the heads of any US federal agents caught in Juarez, he was, in essence, told to shut up and not worry about it. The bounty was of particular importance because my stake had several members who were in fact federal agents, including my friend. (Incidentally, it was about this time that my friend got his first CCP and talked me into doing the same.) In the end, after being brow-beaten and ostricized by those who should have been his friends in Christ, my friend pushed the issue, and the stake president responded by giving a talk at church wherein he promised that "God would protect anyone who went to the Juarez temple." During my stake's first outing to the Juarez temple two cars were stolen, one was vandalized, and a month later one couple narrowly escaped the city with their lives after being threatened by thugs at gunpoint. My friend finally succeeded in persuading some of the people in our stake to go with him to the Albuquerque temple instead. The stake president, with the full support of the stake high council, and in spite of the violence that the members were facing, continued to encourage ALL members to attend the Juarez temple AND continued to try to dissuade my friend from "misleading the Saints" by going to the Albuquerque temple. I guess the stake president wasn't one of the ones whose car was stolen. Or perhaps his idealism blinded him to the venal nature of the real world outside of his perfect little bubble. In any case, the point is that the church expects its members to bow their heads and humbly submit to any and all authority, so good luck trying to change anything with grassroots activism. Please note that I'm not saying that all Mormons are authoritarian tyrants and lackeys. I know quite a few Mormons who are thoughtful, freedom-loving patriots, as I strive to be. I'm just saying that there is a culture of "don't think, just do what you're told" within much of the church.
Sorry to go off topic, but I just wanted to point out some of the difficulties that are likely to be faced by anyone trying to use down-up pressure on the church to restore a wise gun policy. And again, I hope I haven't offended the sensibilities of any Mormons who feel that their church leaders can do no wrong.
By the way, I like the chain of command analogy. I also feel that my God-given duty is at odds with this church policy. While I do understand that if I get caught with a gun at church this will put the Bishop in a moral quandry, I feel that not protecting my family (and fellow ward members, for that matter) is an even bigger moral issue.
And like everyone else here, I am neither confessing to or explicitly encouraging anyone to break the law. Inform yourself, think about it, and then make your own personal decision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,757 Posts
Good post, butcher. Just one suggestion: The occasional paragraph break makes long posts like yours much easier to read. It's easy to lose your place in a large, monolithic block of text.

Not a flame, just a friendly suggestion to help your thinking and writing to be read by more people, since you obviously put a lot of effort into it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,390 Posts
UtahJarhead said:
The church leaders have said they don't want guns in church. I have found NOWHERE that says the decision was divinely inspired. I think it was legally inspired.
I just don't know about that.

To: Area Presidencies, Area Authority Seventies, Temple Presidents, Stake Presidents, Bishops, and Branch Presidents in Utah

Dear Brethren:

Firearms in Houses of Worship

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

Utah law permits churches or other organizations operating houses of worship to prohibit firearms. Any person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm, who knowingly and intentionally transports a firearm into a house of worship or who, while in possession of a firearm, enters or remains in a house of worship where firearms have been prohibited, is guilty of a crime. An exception will be provided for law enforcement personnel, as contemplated by law.

The church plans to invoke the Utah law and give public notice that firearms are prohibited in the church's houses of worship, including temples, meetinghouses, the Assembly Hall, the Salt Lake Tabernacle, and the Conference Center.
Scouting merit badge and other activities where firearms are legitimately involved should be held in facilities other than houses of worship.

Once such public notice is given, persons who bring firearms into a church house of worship should be informed of the church's position and politely asked to take their firearms to another safe location. Persons who refuse to take their firearms from the house of worship or repeatedly ignore the church's prohibition should be referred to local law enforcement officers for possible criminal prosecution. However, every reasonable effort should be made to avoid confrontation and to defuse emotional situations so as to prevent violence and misunderstanding. Questions regarding particular situations may be referred to the Church Security Department and the Church's Office of General Counsel at church headquarters.

Sincerely your brethren,

(signed)

Gordon B. Hinckley

Thomas S. Monson

James E. Faust
I really think this is a test in humility type of thing. About trusting in god and not "relying on the arm of flesh" as others have put it. This comment will only make sense (well MIGHT make sense) to those that believe in a divine power, but I really don't think our mortal minds can wrap themselves around and understand the celestial reasoning of some guidelines or commandments.

In my mind I have a "nice to know" shelf. Things like this I would REALLY like to understand; but alas I can not. At some points in your life I think to grow you have to put things like this on the nice to know shelf and rely on your faith.
Note that I did not say follow everything 100% blindly, but rather let faith guide you.

I am not saying I want to be killed, but truth be told if I was going to be than church would probably be about the best place for it to happen from an eternal prespective :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,570 Posts
"free from the cares of the world." I can agree with that, but the problem is, the cares of the world show up in our pews.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
299 Posts
The LDS church is a religious organization but also has to function in this world where we are over run with many silly laws and silly people. I think the LDS church leaders do prayerfully make their decisions. But there are commandments and then there are policies. Because they pray and God says yes to a policy, does that make it divine instructions from heaven? I don't know but I know God lets people make mistakes and takes care of them at the same time. I think that generally, policies like this are in place to help protect and set order to the workings of the church. They aren't set in stone, are able to be revised and are a little more flexible than the four basic LDS rules. (Go to church, read the scriptures, say your prayers and do what's right!)

Ultimately, I believe the leaders of the church receive revelation/inspiration for the good of the church as a whole. I'm am just as able to receive pertinent revelation/inspiration for myself or my family. If I wake up Sunday morning and have the distinct impression to take my gun to church then you bet I will!

Zacharia said:
I really think this is a test in humility type of thing. About trusting in god and not "relying on the arm of flesh" as others have put it
I've been taught my whole life that God works through people and uses us as his instruments to do his work on earth. But I think you're right about the humility thing. Have I made the decision to carry at church or have God and I made it? I agree God has a plan for us and we rarely know it or understand it. Many of my personal religious beliefs, that I won't discuss here, factor in to whether or not or when I carry to church.

Butch, there are too many stories like yours to count. The church is run buy a bunch of imperfect people. People who follow the "don't think, just do what you're told" get into trouble or offended thinking the leaders should be perfect. These stories usually involve lower level leaders like stake presidents and bishops.

^^ike
 
G

·
I think the church was right when they said that they don't need any firearms in the church. And so does I, What will they do with that firearms?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
:agree:

I asked my Bishop if the church was going to reconsider the gun restriction because of recent events and the fact that more than just LEO's can carry legally. He stated he didn't believe they would, so I asked what his opinion was on guns in church by people with concealed permits that know how to shoot in an emergency. He told me that as far as he is concerned, "if you can carry legally and no one knows, no problem."
He knows my wife and I carry all the time at the recommend of a federal investigator because of threats against us and our family. Not sure what the church would do in the event of an emergency, but I do know that being alive because I had to shoot some nut ranks higher on my priority list than having to bury family members or friends.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
927 Posts
Just gotta ask. When will the LDS Church name show up in the "Boycott " area of the board index? We have thrown businesses in there for far less. :dunno:
 
81 - 100 of 115 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top