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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lately, I've noticed several members of this forum who seem to go out looking for hassles just so they can fight it. (Particularly, in the Open Carry section of the forum.) That's not what firearms are for. As I've said before, I think OCing is perfectly fine when you do it while going about your business, but when it BECOMES your business, others may see you as a nuisance. Then they think we're all wierdos.

Carrying a firearm should be done for the purpose of protecting and maintaining the safety of yourself and those around you. I don't think it's about fighting for rights. (Especially rights that we already have.)

Also, I've been thinking a lot about all the people in society who are not comfortable with firearms. Some just have no interest in them, while others are actually afraid of them. While I would never let such people keep me from carrying, I will always be mindful of them and try not to make them feel threatened. I don't agree with their opinion, but I won't force my opinion on them.

Finally, I want to address comments that have been made regarding police officers. On this forum, I've read that police officers are ignorant and that they are harrassing us. Sure, many police officers don't know the state gun laws, but niether did I until it became such an interest of mine and that didn't make me ignorant. The officers are just doing their job the way they were trained to do it. If you are questioned by an officer because you are open carrying, be thankful for his/her concern. They're looking out for the safety of everyone; not just for people who carry.

Please don't get me wrong; I'm as pro-gun as any of you. I just think we should always set a good example and treat people with respect. We can do so and still exercise our rights.
 

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Dustin WJ said:
Lately, I've noticed several members of this forum who seem to go out looking for hassles just so they can fight it. (Particularly, in the Open Carry section of the forum.) That's not what firearms are for. As I've said before, I think OCing is perfectly fine when you do it while going about your business, but when it BECOMES your business, others may see you as a nuisance. Then they think we're all wierdos.

Carrying a firearm should be done for the purpose of protecting and maintaining the safety of yourself and those around you. I don't think it's about fighting for rights. (Especially rights that we already have.)

Also, I've been thinking a lot about all the people in society who are not comfortable with firearms. Some just have no interest in them, while others are actually afraid of them. While I would never let such people keep me from carrying, I will always be mindful of them and try not to make them feel threatened. I don't agree with their opinion, but I won't force my opinion on them.

Finally, I want to address comments that have been made regarding police officers. On this forum, I've read that police officers are ignorant and that they are harrassing us. Sure, many police officers don't know the state gun laws, but niether did I until it became such an interest of mine and that didn't make me ignorant. The officers are just doing their job the way they were trained to do it. If you are questioned by an officer because you are open carrying, be thankful for his/her concern. They're looking out for the safety of everyone; not just for people who carry.

Please don't get me wrong; I'm as pro-gun as any of you. I just think we should always set a good example and treat people with respect. We can do so and still exercise our rights.
I agree that you have expressed some valid points.

Tarzan
 

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Dustin WJ said:
Lately, I've noticed several members of this forum who seem to go out looking for hassles just so they can fight it. (Particularly, in the Open Carry section of the forum.) That's not what firearms are for.
I don't think they are actively looking for a hassle. At least I hope they aren't. But I do believe they are looking to educate - particularly in areas where education is much needed.

Dustin WJ said:
when it BECOMES your business, others may see you as a nuisance. Then they think we're all wierdos.
No, the weirdos are the ones that have an unnatural fear of objects - particularly small metal ones that fit in your hand. Were the blacks that insisted on riding in the front of the bus weirdos? What about the women that insisted on gaining a right to vote? I have to disagree with you that it is somehow weird to exercise a constitutional right - even if the primary purpose of exercising that right is because you can.

Dustin WJ said:
Carrying a firearm should be done for the purpose of protecting and maintaining the safety of yourself and those around you. I don't think it's about fighting for rights. (Especially rights that we already have.)
Unfortunately, those rights are ones that so many of us take for granted. We are all pretty lucky/blessed/whatever to live in the place we do where we can even OWN a gun, let alone carry one openly in public. Yes, we have those rights, but try taking those rights with you to California or D.C or Illinois or Wisconsin or pretty much any other nation on the planet. We're SO FRIGGIN' CLOSE to losing those rights, it's scary! Just look at the weapons bill that just went to Congress. If by exercising what few gun rights we have left those that open carry help preserve those rights, even in a little way, then I'm all for it. If a few less enlightened souls are offended or made uncomfortable because of that, so be it. No right has ever been regained or preserved without a few battles and a lot of discomfort - just ask the founding fathers. After all, the founding fathers did not use their rights to free speech to gain independence from the British, they shot them. They put gun rights 2nd in the constitution because they knew those rights would be among the first a tyrannical government would seek to take away.

Dustin WJ said:
I don't agree with their opinion, but I won't force my opinion on them.
I don't think one's choice of apparel is the same as forcing one's opinion on another. While I might be uncomfortable with a woman wearing skimpy clothing in public, that doesn't make me a whore.

Dustin WJ said:
If you are questioned by an officer because you are open carrying, be thankful for his/her concern. They're looking out for the safety of everyone; not just for people who carry.
I think that's part of the point of the OC efforts here. There are a lot of better things that some officers could be doing than spending hours questioning law abiding citizens. By educating them on the law and our rights, we are relieving them (and us) of the burden so they (and we) can do better things.

Dustin WJ said:
Please don't get me wrong; I'm as pro-gun as any of you. I just think we should always set a good example and treat people with respect. We can do so and still exercise our rights.
Amen. I fully agree. As I've noted before, I rarely open carry. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack. You make some valid points and I'm presenting some counter points. I'm sure we could go the rounds on this forever, so I'll stop now. There will always be some difference in opinion here - what's important is that we are all on the same team and pursuing the same goal.
 

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I mainly carry concealed, I bet I have OC'ed 3, maybe 4 times. I do support what the guys that OC are doing. I guess if we do not use are rights we will lose them. So even through I much prefer CC I can not criticize those that OC. Just my .02.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
apollosmith said:
I don't think they are actively looking for a hassle. At least I hope they aren't. But I do believe they are looking to educate - particularly in areas where education is much needed.
Go to a thread in the Open Carry section, called "Stopped by WVCPD Finest" and read the comments there.

apollosmith said:
No, the weirdos are the ones that have an unnatural fear of objects - particularly small metal ones that fit in your hand. Were the blacks that insisted on riding in the front of the bus weirdos? What about the women that insisted on gaining a right to vote? I have to disagree with you that it is somehow weird to exercise a constitutional right - even if the primary purpose of exercising that right is because you can.
Those small metal objects are deadly weapons, unlike a bus seat or a voting ballot. If you are going to stores just to walk around and let people see your firearm, someone is likely to feel threatened, whether they are wrong or not.

apollosmith said:
Unfortunately, those rights are ones that so many of us take for granted. We are all pretty lucky/blessed/whatever to live in the place we do where we can even OWN a gun, let alone carry one openly in public. Yes, we have those rights, but try taking those rights with you to California or D.C or Illinois or Wisconsin or pretty much any other nation on the planet. We're SO FRIGGIN' CLOSE to losing those rights, it's scary! Just look at the weapons bill that just went to Congress. If by exercising what few gun rights we have left those that open carry help preserve those rights, even in a little way, then I'm all for it. If a few less enlightened souls are offended or made uncomfortable because of that, so be it. No right has ever been regained or preserved without a few battles and a lot of discomfort - just ask the founding fathers. After all, the founding fathers did not use their rights to free speech to gain independence from the British, they shot them. They put gun rights 2nd in the constitution because they knew those rights would be among the first a tyrannical government would seek to take away.
If we are a nuisance by waiving our rights in police officers' faces and calling them ignorant, I really believe it will do more harm than good. Think about it; they have a lot to deal with every day (much of which has nothing to do with firearms). No one should annoy them by constantly pulling them away from their other work to deal with "OC encounters." If you want to educate them, write to their departments.

apollosmith said:
I don't think one's choice of apparel is the same as forcing one's opinion on another. While I might be uncomfortable with a woman wearing skimpy clothing in public, that doesn't make me a whore.
Again, your choice of apparel is a deadly weapon and hers is not. Also, she is probably not wearing skimpy clothing to "EDUCATE" you regarding her opinion.

apollosmith said:
I think that's part of the point of the OC efforts here. There are a lot of better things that some officers could be doing than spending hours questioning law abiding citizens. By educating them on the law and our rights, we are relieving them (and us) of the burden so they (and we) can do better things.
As I said before, we can educate them behind the scenes by talking or writing to their higher-ups. That would be much more professional and respectful than arguing with police at a store or doing a "half-hour walk-through," as one member suggested. Who knows, if we're calm and respectful, they just might listen to us.

apollosmith said:
I'm sure we could go the rounds on this forever, so I'll stop now.
I agree that debating this subject is nothing more than... :beathorse: even when you debate it with the police. That's why we should just continue carrying firearms for protection purposes as we go through life. If you feel that you must work to keep your rights, don't do it with an "In your face" attitude. It makes us all look bad.

Sometimes, people here ask if it's ok to carry a firearm in specific places, such as Megaplex Theaters and other places that have signs that say "No Weapons Allowed." Back when I first joined this forum, the answer was usually "Concealed is concealed." In other words, who's going to know. But, lately, the answer is usually something along the lines of protest, a "walk-through," or calling Mark Shurtleff. Why not just conceal your firearm and avoid unpleasant encounters while still exercising your 2nd ammendment right?

Also, doesn't it seem strange to see such an aggresive push for open carry on utahCONCEALEDcarry.com?
 

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Ramiguy said:
Dustin WJ said:
Also, doesn't it seem strange to see such an aggresive push for open carry on utahCONCEALEDcarry.com?
Stay out of the open carry section of the forum if it bugs you
Well now, that's a very cordial reply! Ramiguy, why are you so offended by another man's opinion?

Honestly, I've noticed the very same trend Dustin WJ is addressing here. And, it's a little scary that he's been the only one trying to bring it to light. BTW, that does NOT make him wrong! I think the only point he's trying to make here is it seems many of the folks on this forum are becoming crusaders on this issue. When you become a crusader on any issue, you often overlook the concerns of others.

I've also noticed the "attitude" some are showing when discussing this issue here on the board. Referring to police officers, store managers, and so on as "ignoramuses" is really moving "our" cause in the right direction now isn't it! If we want to be respected..we must be respectful! And no, we are not smarter than everyone else just because we happen to know more about Utah gun laws. The only reason we do know more is because of the VERY PERSONAL choice we've made to be as prepared as we can be in the event the unthinkable should happen.

As Dustin WJ has stated; the way to address this issue is through writting letters to department heads, whether they be law enforcement agencies or corporate headquarters of companies such as Walmart. Public "flaunting" of our "rights" is always going to bring a negative response from the masses. (Anyone see the Tribune cartoon yesterday)? :raisedbrow: No one likes to have anything such as religion, rights, or, beliefs of any kind shoved down their throat!

I'll say it again, I'm not at all against OC. I have open carried, and I will continue to do so when I feel a desire to. But, I will always be respectful, and mindful of the duties and concerns of others such as LEO's, store managers, or anyone else who may question my intentions. That's part of the territory in exercising "my rights"!

I'm not here to debate, argue, or be offensive in any way. These boards are a wonderful source of information. These forums also offer us a place to discuss important issues with like minded people where we can share our thoughts (and concerns) in a respectful way.

Cheers,

Rick
 
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Civil disobedience is a proven technique to change society. Although open carry is not civil disobedience as it is not against the law it is social shaky. Anything that close to being regarded as unacceptable that can be enforced by law will be. I regard carrying to exercise and preserve the right as legitimate as carrying for self defense.

I have no problem wasting a cops time.

On the rare occasion I carry I comply with restrictive signs on private property by taking my business elsewhere (if it is an option) as I honor their right to do with their property as they see fit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
GSP mentioned a cartoon in the Tribune. It was a picture of an OCer being carried away by squirrels because they thought he was a "nut." This goes along with what I've been saying. I think if we go about our lives, quietly exercising our rights, people will think nothing of it. However when we wave our rights at people and be overly vocal about it, people who don't understand will see us as "nuts."

Again, I have NO PROBLEM with open carry. (That's why I do visit the open carry section of the forum.) I just think it can be done more discreetly.
 

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Dustin WJ said:
GSP mentioned a cartoon in the Tribune. It was a picture of an OCer being carried away by squirrels because they thought he was a "nut." This goes along with what I've been saying. I think if we go about our lives, quietly exercising our rights, people will think nothing of it. However when we wave our rights at people and be overly vocal about it, people who don't understand will see us as "nuts."

Again, I have NO PROBLEM with open carry. (That's why I do visit the open carry section of the forum.) I just think it can be done more discreetly.
Here is the cartoon,


I appreciate this discussion, I see it coming from many informed and want to stay informed OC'ers and CC'ers Keeping all of us on our toes and knowing where and how we stand, keeps everyone safe.
 

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Some very good points here. I am glad we can all stay adults when discussing these issues. I Can definetely agree with both views here. I think that we must excercise a right to keep it but at the same time we need to stay somewhat discreet as to not annoy the wrong person.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've edited a previous post of mine on this thread because it mentioned a specific member. My point is still the same, but the post is more general now.
 

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I appreciate your concern Dustin. Yes, there is a subforum here called Open Carry. Yes, it's addition is recent. The reason for this is due to a number of our members who conceal and open carry.

I understand that some comments made by members might evoke a sense that they WANT to be harassed and have negative experiences (who am I do determine another's true intentions?), but I think you are misreading the general tone of the threads. It seems to me, both when I read the comments and meet with the members in person, that the negativity you read is based upon the ignorance of the populace and law enforcement regarding our laws. Now, sure, I am like you. I didn't know much about gun law until just a few years ago - didn't have a gun and therefor it didn't affect me much (so I thought). If people don't care about gun laws, that's their prerogative, I don't think anyone here is trying to go around convincing everyone they meet that OC is legal.

What we ARE doing is going about our daily business. I go to COSTCO, the membership checker asks me about my gun, he's a CFPer, he knows the two actions thing but wants a little clarification. I talk to him, clear things up, and give him a UCC card - hopefully he comes here and talks with us. Then I go on to another store, buy some stuff and leave. Before I can exit the door, the guy at the register says, "Hey, what's up with the gun and all the gear?" I send my wife to the car and spend a minute or two with this guy and give him a card - he doesn't seem as receptive, but maybe he'll change his mind and want to know more later.

I don't see myself as "flaunting" my OC'd firearm, and I don't think what I'm doing makes me a nut. I have a right to be armed, you have a right to voice your concerns, we are both exercising our rights. However, the last time I checked, nobody was ever granted the right to not feel comfortable at all times. I see all kinds of weird people during the day, but as far as I can tell, none of them are breaking any laws, so I leave them be. When someone says "I just don't understand why someone needs to openly carry a gun, that's just not right." I say, "That's your opinion and that's where the extent of the law takes you, voicing your opinion."

No person should feel dissuaded from exercising their rights. The manner in which they do so is up to them. Should they do it in a way that violates the law, they will be held accountable. If they do it in a way that disturbs us, we should strive to not make the same mistakes. Counseling others to curb their actions because, in our mind, it has the potential to hurt a general cause, even though there is no evidence to support our concern, is not the kind of behavior that this country was founded to support. If you want to CC or quietly OC, please, do it. If you want to go stand on the corner and wave your hands around saying, "I carry a firearm openly because there is no law saying I can't," by all means, please do so. I don't choose to do either of those things, but I would never try to tell someone else how to carry, it's just not my place.
 

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Dustin, I hear you 100%. I see nothing wrong with carrying a gun openly but don't be a gun nerd. :roll:

I watched this video the other day and cringed:

Can you say rude? Yes, the police officer was being rude but so was the guy on the phone and the guy with the beard was off the charts. Is this a reflection of how we want police to view us? What happens when the news media gets a hold of this video and shows it on their news channel? I know I wouldn't be a proud gun owner that day.

"TESTING" the system is not the right way to go about this in my opinion. What happens when the law gets reviewed by lawmakers and one police officer after another testifies how rude the citizen acted or has video like what I posted above?

Unfortunately we are viewed as freaks in a lot of minds out there. We need to carry ourselves professionally and use our rights but not abuse them.
 

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MarshallDodge said:
Dustin, I hear you 100%. I see nothing wrong with carrying a gun openly but don't be a gun nerd. :roll:

I watched this video the other day and cringed:

Can you say rude? Yes, the police officer was being rude but so was the guy on the phone and the guy with the beard was off the charts. Is this a reflection of how we want police to view us? What happens when the news media gets a hold of this video and shows it on their news channel? I know I wouldn't be a proud gun owner that day.

"TESTING" the system is not the right way to go about this in my opinion. What happens when the law gets reviewed by lawmakers and one police officer after another testifies how rude the citizen acted or has video like what I posted above?

Unfortunately we are viewed as freaks in a lot of minds out there. We need to carry ourselves professionally and use our rights but not abuse them.
:agree:
 

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MarshallDodge said:
Dustin, I hear you 100%. I see nothing wrong with carrying a gun openly but don't be a gun nerd. :roll:

I watched this video the other day and cringed:

Can you say rude? Yes, the police officer was being rude but so was the guy on the phone and the guy with the beard was off the charts. Is this a reflection of how we want police to view us? What happens when the news media gets a hold of this video and shows it on their news channel? I know I wouldn't be a proud gun owner that day.

"TESTING" the system is not the right way to go about this in my opinion. What happens when the law gets reviewed by lawmakers and one police officer after another testifies how rude the citizen acted or has video like what I posted above?

Unfortunately we are viewed as freaks in a lot of minds out there. We need to carry ourselves professionally and use our rights but not abuse them.
:agree:

In the video, towards the end, I especially liked the part where the subject of the stop remarks about how he hadn't updated his drivers license with his "current" address! HA! :lol: He wants the police to recognize "his rights" to the letter of the law.. but, he doesn't seem to think it's too important that he do the same.

Dustin, Thank you for starting this thread! I believe it's one of the most important subjects I've seen on the forum in a while. Sometimes, it truly doesn't matter what our intentions are..what matters is how we're perceived as gun owners.

Rick
 

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The day after I went to the WVC Council meeting to support TJ, I had the opportunity to talk with an off-duty WVC police officer about OC. He agreed basically that OC was legal, but it scares the average citizen, and therefore can be considered disorderly conduct. I asked him if the "average citizen" saw someone with multiple body piercings and saggy pants, and called the police because it was highly offensive to that citizen, would that be disorderly conduct on the part of the guy in saggy pants? I think he saw the point, but still didn't like OC.

I don't carry openly as much as I carry concealed. But more and more I carry openly. The hot summer weather makes it a lot easier to make that decision. I think my demeanor becomes more important when I OC. Smiling, friendly behavior does a lot to put people at ease.
 
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MarshallDodge said:
Dustin, I hear you 100%. I see nothing wrong with carrying a gun openly but don't be a gun nerd. :roll:

I watched this video the other day and cringed:

Can you say rude? Yes, the police officer was being rude but so was the guy on the phone and the guy with the beard was off the charts. Is this a reflection of how we want police to view us? What happens when the news media gets a hold of this video and shows it on their news channel? I know I wouldn't be a proud gun owner that day.

"TESTING" the system is not the right way to go about this in my opinion. What happens when the law gets reviewed by lawmakers and one police officer after another testifies how rude the citizen acted or has video like what I posted above?

Unfortunately we are viewed as freaks in a lot of minds out there. We need to carry ourselves professionally and use our rights but not abuse them.
Fortunately being rude is not illegal. Nor would any law maker who intended their law to not be struck down by the court consider rude as a reason to vote on a law.

Those people who think those who carry openly are freaks are largely not going to be affected by your or anyones behavior.
Bad examples prove their point and the well behaved are the exception to the rule; but still insane despite their manners and diction. How many people despise homosexuals because they know and dislike some? How about Arabs, or the Chinese, or anti gun activists? Anyone here know Nancy Pelosi and able to comment on the fashion by which she comports herself? Yet I often here phases like "kook" applied to her. Homosexuals are widely despised due to personal disgust of the act of sexual congress with the same sex or because someone told them god hates them; it has nothing to do with their behavior.
 

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Eukatae said:
Those people who think those who carry openly are freaks are largely not going to be affected by your or anyones behavior.
I disagree. I think we have the power to make a positive influence on those that are not informed.

All I am saying is that we should be taking the high road and not stoop down to their levels. If you want to be rude while carrying a gun then do it but I guarantee your rights will be curtailed.

Politicians make the laws in this country. When push comes to shove, they are going to stand by the group that makes them look good. Since we are in the minority already we need to walk softly and carry a big stick.
 
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