For me, personally, it's not so much about penetration as it is making a big hole in the bad guy. I would not want to mix bullet types in my carry gun.
Though, I have done this when practicing.
Though, I have done this when practicing.
JHP-FMJ-JHP-FMJ
i've heard of rotating types of bullets within a magazine.
hollow point for a big hole and the FMJ for penetration.
has there been any discussion on here regarding this?
i imagine the con of having an fmj is not putting a big enough hole, going straight through, and possibly hitting "other stuff".
should it even be considered for a regular CCW holder?
hollow point for a big hole and the FMJ for penetration.
has there been any discussion on here regarding this?
i imagine the con of having an fmj is not putting a big enough hole, going straight through, and possibly hitting "other stuff".
should it even be considered for a regular CCW holder?
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
I use FMJ for plicking, and JHP for PD. I also shoot JHP at the range just to get use to it, only once in awhile though.
I only alternate bullet types like this when I am in the wilderness. I've got some nice 185 grain FMJ's and some HOT 230 JHP's that I alternate with just in case of a nasty bear encounter or something.
But I would not do that on a regular basis for self defense.
But I would not do that on a regular basis for self defense.
You have to realize that your typical FMJ ammunition is meant to be used for target practice and is not loaded as hot as personal defense ammo. I don't know about penetration comparisons, but I do know that my JHPs kick more than my FMJs and that the JHPs are designed to get a good amount of penetration with a large wound cavity. I personally don't see any positive reason to alternate rounds.
If you ever had to fire your weapon, you might have to explain why you used two totally different types of ammunition in your firearm. Using ammunition that is not "meant" for self-defense may be used against you in a court of law.
If you ever had to fire your weapon, you might have to explain why you used two totally different types of ammunition in your firearm. Using ammunition that is not "meant" for self-defense may be used against you in a court of law.
FMJ rounds tend to penetrate more than JHP rounds do and this could be a problem. When I bought my first handgun that was going to be used for self defense I was advised to use nothing but commercial grade JHP's.
lockout,
jm2c, L.E is all about saving money (being Cheap!). If you could effectively stop someone with FMJ, L.E. would use them because it's much cheaper. Since no studies have shown FMJ's having the 'stopping power' JHP's do, they stick with JHP. My suggestion, stick with what the studies have shown as being effective.
And on a side note, there is no one in the credible firearms world, Civilian, L.E. , or Mil that will ever recommend doing what you asked about.
jm2c, L.E is all about saving money (being Cheap!). If you could effectively stop someone with FMJ, L.E. would use them because it's much cheaper. Since no studies have shown FMJ's having the 'stopping power' JHP's do, they stick with JHP. My suggestion, stick with what the studies have shown as being effective.
And on a side note, there is no one in the credible firearms world, Civilian, L.E. , or Mil that will ever recommend doing what you asked about.
It's an interesting idea and one I've heard about quite a bit. It's commonly called "dutch loading".
That old guy in Florida that shot a bunch of hoodlums robbing his gun store did this. It became a bit of a issue there because some lawyer argued that the configuration was intended to be "more lethal". Well, duh!
One issue with this is if the varying ammo has a different recoil or impacts your gun differently. But, if you ever have to shoot your gun in self defense, I doubt you're going to notice or care about such things.
One weapon where I think this does make sense is a shotgun - alternate slugs and shot where the difference between the two really is significant.
That old guy in Florida that shot a bunch of hoodlums robbing his gun store did this. It became a bit of a issue there because some lawyer argued that the configuration was intended to be "more lethal". Well, duh!
One issue with this is if the varying ammo has a different recoil or impacts your gun differently. But, if you ever have to shoot your gun in self defense, I doubt you're going to notice or care about such things.
One weapon where I think this does make sense is a shotgun - alternate slugs and shot where the difference between the two really is significant.
GeneticsDave wrote:
This is a good point. The lawyer against you will try everything he can to make it look like you had some "bad" intention. That is also the reason to use ammo designed for personal defense instead of your own reloads.If you ever had to fire your weapon, you might have to explain why you used two totally different types of ammunition in your firearm. Using ammunition that is not "meant" for self-defense may be used against you in a court of law.
Your counterargument would be that the FMJ is known to be less deadly than JHP except in circumstances where the bad guy is wearing a heavy coat or has other protection that makes the normally-deadlier JHP ineffective. It seems like a really solid counterargument, but it would suck to have to try to make it, and if the prosecutor is better than your lawyer or if the jury is just looking for some justification for hanging it on you, you could be going away.GeneticsDave said:Using ammunition that is not "meant" for self-defense may be used against you in a court of law.
Legally, I think it's pretty clear that your very best is to carry exactly what your local LEOs carry.
On that note: Aren't there some LEOs here? What do you guys use?
JHPOn that note: Aren't there some LEOs here? What do you guys use?
Brand? Slug weight? What dept. are you with? I'd like to be able to say "I carry X because that's what department Y uses, and they're professionals."TMG said:JHPOn that note: Aren't there some LEOs here? What do you guys use?
Just because L.E. uses it, doesn't mean it's the best choice for everyone. It's 'A' choice, which is typically made by someone in Administration from each respective department. Also, a Lot of departments in Utah buy from a State Bid process; through a state contract. And most of the rounds we use are not easily available to non-LE.Brand? Slug weight? What dept. are you with? I'd like to be able to say "I carry X because that's what department Y uses, and they're professionals."
I carry:
9mm = 135 grn Fed. Tactical jhp
.40 = 165 Fed. Tatcical jhp
.223 = 62 grn Fed tactical bonded soft piont
From a legal perspective, it does mean exactly that. No prosecutor with half a brain is going to try to argue that I used the "wrong" ammunition if it's the same ammunition carried by local LE. And if a stupid prosecutor does try to make that argument, it'll be a short-lived one.TMG said:Just because L.E. uses it, doesn't mean it's the best choice for everyone.
From a practical/tactical perspective, it's unlikely to be a bad choice, though it may not be ideal.
EDIT: Changed to allow for the existence of stupid prosecutors.
I use JHP ammo. Isn't the idea to stop Mr. Bad guy? Hollow point is intended to do just that by causing the most damage. The FMJ would tend to go through and could cause a problem with what ever or who ever is behind it.
If I understand right Hollow points can over penetrate but I believe the energy is significantly reduced, I also understand the concept of being aware of what is behind the target.
Correct me if I am wrong here.
If I understand right Hollow points can over penetrate but I believe the energy is significantly reduced, I also understand the concept of being aware of what is behind the target.
Correct me if I am wrong here.
It doesn't really matter which brand you buy or what weight they are (grains). What is important is that the brand be a big name brand and not have any negative press (i.e. Black Talon). Although there is nothing really wrong with JHPs made by a small company or JPHs such as the Black Talon, there is the chance that your reasoning for using these rounds could be called into question. I would stick to a company such as Glaser, Federal, Speer, etc. You will be fine with any of those - any other details are just personal preference (feeding, price, ballistics, etc).
Ammo selection is paramount after the choice of weapon. Handguns are not the best personal defense weapon (the 12 Ga is my first choice), but the handgun is much easier to carry, conceal and put into use.
Contrary to what you see in the movies, people do NOT explode into pink mist and bone chips when shot with a handgun. Unless you place a shot into the brain or spine, bad guys stop what they are doing through loss of blood. This is caused by a quality JHP properly placed in the vitals and penetrating deep enough and expanding sufficiently to cause massive tissue damage which results in rapid blood loss causing the bad guy to stop what he is doing.
FJM’s tend to over penetrate without expanding. If you are involved in a lethal force situation and you are alternating JHP and FMJ, you have limited the effectiveness of your shots. If you are faced with a lethal force situation, everyone should receive a controlled pair placed within the vitals. You want at least two rounds penetrating and expanding into the heart and lung area causing massive bleeders.
Use the FMJ’s for plinking and range time and then load up the mags with a quality, name-brand JHP for personal defense.
Contrary to what you see in the movies, people do NOT explode into pink mist and bone chips when shot with a handgun. Unless you place a shot into the brain or spine, bad guys stop what they are doing through loss of blood. This is caused by a quality JHP properly placed in the vitals and penetrating deep enough and expanding sufficiently to cause massive tissue damage which results in rapid blood loss causing the bad guy to stop what he is doing.
FJM’s tend to over penetrate without expanding. If you are involved in a lethal force situation and you are alternating JHP and FMJ, you have limited the effectiveness of your shots. If you are faced with a lethal force situation, everyone should receive a controlled pair placed within the vitals. You want at least two rounds penetrating and expanding into the heart and lung area causing massive bleeders.
Use the FMJ’s for plinking and range time and then load up the mags with a quality, name-brand JHP for personal defense.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
- This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Utah Guns Forum
A forum community dedicated to firearm owners and enthusiasts in Utah. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
