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Just more proof that no-knock warrants are a bad idea

9236 Views 66 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  Aether
ksl.com said:
Robbers break into Salt Lake City home and terrorize family

Click picture for video:

A man was beaten during a robbery. It happened around 4 a.m. The victim's wife said she didn't know who the robbers were.

She didn't want to go on camera, but she shared with Eyewitness News the scary details. She said her 8-year-old daughter awoke to screaming and witnessed her stepfather being beaten by two masked men.



"I'm scared for their safety," said Anthony Romero, the victim's son. "They just barely moved into the house. It's a nice house, nice area, nice people."

Anthony Romero said his family moved into the house near 1500 South and 1000 West two months ago. That has police wondering if the violent home invasion was a case of mistaken identity. Salt Lake City Police Detective Shawn Smart said, "There's a possibility that these people could have had the wrong house."

It was 4 o'clock in the morning. The family was asleep when two men dressed in black and wearing ski masks ripped the screen and broke through a basement window in the back of the house.



Romero, who was at another relative's home this morning, said the men went into his 10-year-old brother's room first. He said, "My little brother, they pointed a shotgun at him and said, ‘Where's your mom and dad?'"

Inside the master bedroom, the men yelled at Romero's mother and stepfather, demanding money and drugs.

The woman said the men wore what looked like police SWAT uniforms. She said they identified themselves as police officers and wore badges around their necks.

When the robbers didn't get what they wanted, the men put a pillowcase over her husband's head and beat him. "They just beat him up with a gun a couple of times, tried to choke him for some money. I don't know why," Romero said.

The men left with some cash and the victims' car keys. Police haven't been able to find them. Smart said, "Anybody that does this type of thing, they're dangerous."

The men wore masks, so police don't have a good description of the suspects. If you have any information, call Salt Lake City police at 799-3000.
So how are we supposed to know who's a LEO and who isn't when there is no warning and no warrant? If we shoot, we could be killed by the real LEOs. This is messed up.
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  • The no-knock search warrant that authorized a Denver police team to enter the home of Ismael Mena on September 29 should never have been issued, the ACLU charged today. Mena was shot and killed by SWAT team officers as they entered Mena's home to search for illegal drugs. No drugs were ever found.[/*]

Anyways, I don't want to post links to all of them, there are too many. If you want to see for yourself, go have a look at the "Raid Map."
Thanks for the links, I really appreciate it.

It's not dangerous if you don't try to go in. Stay outside, pump in CS gas. Even if the guy has equipment, there's a serious limit to how long you can stay at MOPP 4.
There are situations where suspects are barricaded in such a way that even the munitions don't affect them. Going in on a barricade is one of the final options, but there are times when it is necessary. I'm not saying that every situation calls for no-knocks. With the minimal, and I do admit minimal, SWAT training I have had, no-knocks are safer for SWAT Teams. The only difference with knocks vs. no-knocks is the 10 seconds I talked about. The entry team is still going in, it's whether or not they announce their presence prior to entering. The innocent civilians that unfortunately have search warrants served, would probably still try to defend their house.
Stenny4 said:
There are situations where suspects are barricaded in such a way that even the munitions don't affect them. Going in on a barricade is one of the final options, but there are times when it is necessary.
Hopefully, technology is eradicating this problem as well. I can't find the link now, but I read an article about a year ago about a sort of miniature radio-controlled tank for police use. It is based on the robots used by military EOD teams, but heavier, to make it capable of bashing its way through doors and even rather serious barricades. It's small enough to navigate normal hallways, can climb stairs and can be armed with a shotgun and canisters of disabling agents. The expected price for these things was around $100K, but that's not so bad compared to the expense of equipping and training a SWAT team. Even if the RC tank costs a little more, it would be worth it to eliminate risks to officers and reduce risks to innocents.

The tank wouldn't be of any assistance in a hostage situation, of course.

Even without the tank, I still think a barricade situation is safer for everyone (other than hostages) than aggressive entry. I realize someone could have a bomb shelter under their house that allows them to barricade in so well that there's no way to get gas to them, but how common is that? It seems to me that it would be worth the occasional situation where you have to wait them out for a while in order to avoid the dangers inherent in aggressive entry (whether no-knock or knock-and-pause).

BTW, just for reference, my primary experience with this sort of thing was Air Force Security Police training. I think it gave me an interesting perspective, because the SPs have an odd sort of dual role. The peacetime role is a combination security guard and MP job, but during wartime the Air Force's theory is that others take over those roles while the SP forces turn into infantry, armed with heavier weapons and living in foxholes when not out on active patrol around the air base.

We received training for both roles, and the contrast between the tactics used for "police" situations and those used for "grunt" situations was stark. Take clearing a building, for example. For police situations we trained in pretty much what you'd expect: "stacked" entry; high-man/low-man entry behind flashbangs or gas, wearing masks; shoot/no-shoot decisions; continual announcement of police identity; etc. For "grunt" situations, we trained to use satchel charges to breach entryways; fired through any doors or walls that we couldn't get a grenade through easily and couldn't just blow; modified our grenade throwing techniques to assume fragmentation grenades; established supporting fire with heavy machine guns, recoilless rifles and grenade launchers; no warnings at all -- it was either stealth or extreme violence, and not much stealth; etc.

Beyond the difference in techniques, there was a huge difference in the attitude and approach -- and I think military police have a significantly more aggressive attitude than civilian cops should have, even when in "police" mode. The military mindset is to be death on wheels, kill anyone and everything in the target area well before they have any chance of threatening you. The police mindset has to balance risks; you don't want to endanger the cops, but you HAVE to accept some risk because you have to admit the possibility that even if everyone inside is a legitimate suspect, subject to arrest, they're still presumed innocent until proven guilty AND even if guilty you have to do your best not to execute them before they have their day in court. Not to mention the potential presence of the perfectly innocent.

I think SWAT aggressive entry techniques lean too far to the military approach, and are headed further that way all the time. I think they're too dangerous, and inappropriate in most of the cases where they're used.
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swillden said:
I think SWAT aggressive entry techniques lean too far to the military approach, and are headed further that way all the time. I think they're too dangerous, and inappropriate in most of the cases where they're used.
:agree:

With a few exceptions like hostage rescue and active shooters, I don't think that amount of force should ever be used by police. Especially if it's just to preserve 'drug' evidence, if you shut off the building water how much evidence can they get rid of? There should still be plenty of evidence in the drain pipes. The WVC tactics I’ve witnessed never included bullhorns or any real communication attempts with the neighbours.

When a home is invaded, shot up and the innocent home owner is arested there is something VERY wrong with the way they are allowed to conduct business.
swillden said:
Stenny4 said:
there's a serious limit to how long you can stay at MOPP 4.
Yeah... try staying in that crap for just an hour for training... you'd almost RATHER be dead! :lol3:
Stenny4 said:
The only difference with knocks vs. no-knocks is the 10 seconds I talked about. The entry team is still going in, it's whether or not they announce their presence prior to entering. The innocent civilians that unfortunately have search warrants served, would probably still try to defend their house.
It sounds to me that most arguing "the other side" here would argue that the 10-second knock and enter is just as erroneous as the no-knock... it's still a forceful and violent entry into a man's castle. I really don't get this. Short of the "flushing" of drugs, the sit and wait seems to be the best option. Even if the person barricades themselves in in a way that munitions can't get to them (which really doesn't make sense to me... if you can kick a door in, you can certainly drill a hole into it through which you can insert a canister), they still can't live forever on limited water and food...
swillden said:
The police mindset has to balance risks; you don't want to endanger the cops, but you HAVE to accept some risk because you have to admit the possibility that even if everyone inside is a legitimate suspect, subject to arrest, they're still presumed innocent until proven guilty AND even if guilty you have to do your best not to execute them before they have their day in court. Not to mention the potential presence of the perfectly innocent.
Not to mention that the crime has to fit the punishment... a guy with a single personal-use pot plant definitely shouldn't be subject to the death penalty, whether at the hand of a judge or at the hand of an over-aggressive department policy and city prosecutor...
GeneticsDave said:
And to you Mazellan, I would ask (and I am not trying to be confrontive, I am curious about what you think) "Why can't the police use the tools they've had since the founding of our nation instead of increasingly militarizing their methods, weapons and tactics?" I'm all for improving methods and equipment, but when do you say, "Yeah, I'm getting my job done, but I am violating the rights of so many people, is it really worth it?" I consent that we may have to agree to disagree, but I am very interested in reading your thoughts.
I sent you a PM
Thanks, I did read it and am thankful - I understand where you are coming from better now.
Ex-cop gets 102 years for staging raids
Under guise of legitimate work, LAPD officer robbed occupied homes
The Associated Press
updated 7:44 a.m. MT, Tues., May. 20, 2008
LOS ANGELES - A former Los Angeles police officer who participated in home invasion robberies staged to look like police raids was sentenced Monday to 102 years in prison.

William Ferguson, 35, was convicted of participating in more than 40 phony raids from early 1999 to June 2001 at homes in working-class neighborhoods while he worked at the department's scandal-ridden Rampart Division.

In January, a federal jury convicted him of conspiracy to deprive people of their civil rights, conspiracy to possess marijuana and cocaine, violating the civil rights of others and using a firearm during a violent crime.

Ferguson's sentence was so severe because he was convicted of four firearms charges which carry a mandatory sentence of 82 years in prison.

U.S. District Judge Gary Allen Feess said that Congress passed such sentencing laws "because they don't trust people like me."

"It's not a reasonable sentence," he said.

After the hearing, Assistant U.S. Attorney Douglas Miller said prosecutors were pleased.

Punishment too harsh?
Ferguson's attorney, Philip Deitch, said it was unfair and violated the Eighth Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment.

"He's going to be 147-years-old when he gets out," Deitch said. "He's probably not going to see his children again."

Deitch said Ferguson was unfairly punished because prosecutors would not give Ferguson a plea agreement unless he testified against his brother Joseph Ferguson, an ex-Long Beach officer. Otherwise, his client would have pleaded guilty long ago, he said.

Joseph Ferguson, 33, was convicted of charges that included conspiring to violate civil rights and conspiring to possess drugs with the intent to distribute them. He was sentenced earlier this month to more than eight years in prison.

Besides the Ferguson brothers, 15 other people have pleaded guilty or were convicted in the case, including lawmen from other departments. Two others who have been indicted are fugitives.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24725536/

********************************
I am posting this article as an illustration that what may be a seemingly legitimate police incursion may well be something else altogether, thus making it even harder for a homeowner/occupant to make a decision involving self-defense.
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And the fact that he conducted more than 40 phony raids where innocents could have been killed, the reputation and trust of law enforcement nation-wide has be jeopardized, homes were burglarized, firearms were used violently and abuse of authority occurred still makes these people think his sentence is unreasonable?!? These kinds of actions are despicable, and he does not deserve freedom.
GeneticsDave said:
And the fact that he conducted more than 40 phony raids where innocents could have been killed, the reputation and trust of law enforcement nation-wide has be jeopardized, homes were burglarized, firearms were used violently and abuse of authority occurred still makes these people think his sentence is unreasonable?!?
The effect of these raids on the safety of police officers should have cops applauding the stiff sentence. The LAPD burglaries made it clear to everyone who pays attention that if someone breaks into your house at night, you should defend yourself. It doesn't matter if they shout "POLICE!", because even if they ARE police they still might be robbing you.

Of course, honest cops always have the option of protecting themselves by not engaging in aggressive entries.
swillden said:
Of course, honest cops always have the option of protecting themselves by not engaging in aggressive entries.
AMEN! :agree: And I say again, AMEN!
G
Car Knocker said:
Ex-cop gets 102 years for staging raids
Under guise of legitimate work, LAPD officer robbed occupied homes
Cops breaking the law; who'd a thunk it. If this happens about a billion time more I may begin to doubt my belief that cops are infallible, deserving of my trust and submission.
G
The REAL reason no-knock warrants are used is because LEO's are paid hourly. If you pay them to wait for suspects to come out of their houses, the city'd run up quite a large bill in overtime.
Another example to prove the existence of a serious problem:

Home Raid Leads to Complaint and Lawsuit

Police had warrant; dog shot in search

By Mike Santa Rita

Elkridge resident Mike Hasenei has filed a complaint with the Howard County Police Department about a police raid of his home three weeks ago. During the raid, which resulted in no arrests, police shot Hasenei's dog and frightened his 12-year-old daughter, he said. (Staff photo by Alex Stawinski)

After a Howard County police raid on his house three weeks ago, Mike Hasenei says he has a sprained wrist, a dead dog, a bullet hole in his bed and a 12-year-old daughter who is scared every time she hears a knock on the door.

Hasenei, 39, of the 6600 block of Deep Run Parkway, Elkridge, said he was sleeping shortly after 9 p.m. Jan. 15 when a police tactical team kicked in the door to his house.

He woke up and walked into his living room to find it swarming with officers, he said. When he asked what was going on, he was ordered to get on the ground, and when he asked again, he said, he was knocked to the ground and told he was under arrest.

Police then searched his house, looking for items stolen from two marked police cars that were reported broken into on Jan. 14 in the Elkridge community of Mayfield, according to Hasenei, who said he works as a computer analyst at Marriott International.

During the raid, Hasenei said, police shot his Australian cattle dog, in his bedroom.

Earlier that night, police also raided the nearby house of his stepson, Michael Leon Smith Jr., and turned up nothing, Hasenei said.

Police spokeswoman Sherry Llewellyn confirmed the raid on Hasenei's house, noting that police had a search warrant signed by a judge.

Llewellyn would not confirm whether the raid was related to the items stolen from police vehicles on Jan. 14, citing an ongoing investigation.

No one was arrested in the raid, she said, and no arrests have been made relating to the thefts from the police cars, which she said police are still investigating.

Llewellyn confirmed the dog shooting, but said the dog charged police, forcing them to shoot it.

Police suspected guns


Llewellyn said police had reason to believe a gun was in the residence, which was why they did not knock.

A copy of the warrant provided by Hasenei listed items to be seized, including a Sig Sauer Rifle and three ammunition magazines for the rifle, as well as a police gear bag, county police field procedures manual and guide, and more police-related items.

Llewellyn added that when police have reason to believe there might be firearms in a residence, they take precautions to ensure the safety of the officers and anyone inside the house.

"This often includes the use of the tactical team, which is specially trained to deal with potentially dangerous situations," she said.

Llewellyn confirmed Hasenei filed a complaint about the incident with the Howard County Police Department and that police are investigating.

She said no officers had been placed on any kind of administrative duty following the complaint.

She declined to comment on whether any items were seized in the raid on Hasenei's house, citing an ongoing investigation.

House damaged


At Hasenei's house last week, the door to his daughter's room was off its hinges -- a result of the police raid, he said -- and Hasenei's hand was wrapped in a bandage because, he said, it was sprained when policed cuffed his hands too tightly.

"They looked through everything," Hasenei said of the raid. "They didn't find a single thing. I knew they wouldn't because we don't commit crimes."

What appeared to be a bullet hole was visible in a mattress in his bedroom, where, Hasenei said, police shot his dog, and a bloody sheet was stored in the front deck of his home.

"They shot three times. Two hit the dog, one hit the bed," he said.

When police raided his house, Hasenei said, they produced a search warrant relating to Hasenei's stepson. But Hasenei said Smith has not lived at the address for years.

Smith, 20, also of Deep Run Parkway, said police also raided his house that night, but did not find anything. He said police also pushed him to the ground during the raid.

"I stay in my house and keep to myself," Smith said.

Smith said he does not have a driver's license.

He said his state-issued identity card, however, lists his stepfather's address as his home.

Llewellyn declined to comment on any raid on Smith's house, saying only that multiple warrants had been served that night.

Hasenei said he has contacted a lawyer and plans to file a lawsuit. His lawyer did not return a call seeking comment.

Police Chief William McMahon, through Llewellyn, declined to comment on the raid.
GeneticsDave said:
Llewellyn confirmed the dog shooting, but said the dog charged police, forcing them to shoot it.
Duh. That's what a good dog does when strangers kick down the door. Defends his family.

I think it's pretty clear that 99 times out of 100, when the police use tactical teams like this, it is in fact NOT for officer safety. If that were the concern, rather than sending 10 guys to kick the door in, they'd send two to wait until the suspect comes out of his house in the morning to go to work. That's the SAFE way to apprehend a possibly-dangerous suspect. The problem is that it's just not as much fun as kicking in doors, terrorizing 12 year-old girls and shooting dogs.

:disgusted:
Llewellyn added that when police have reason to believe there might be firearms in a residence, they take precautions to ensure the safety of the officers and anyone inside the house.
Somehow I truly doubt this. The only safety engaged in in this raid was the multiple sets of guns in the hands of brutish overzealous thugs (police). The treatment of the victims in this story, at both residences is not in tune with this statement. Truly a hostile and militaristic tactic and not a civil servant inspired sense of duty and respect for their fellowman in this instance. Violations of all types of civil rights here, not to mention that these police committed acts of violence in the presence of a minor child, and unlike the treatment we would receive for such an act, they will go free to commit other acts of violence and mayhem in the future without the same worries we would have to concern ourselves with.
There is a new phenomenon arising that is known as "swatting". I won't go into the details of how the bad actor goes about doing this, but the gist is that the goof can call into 911 and spoof their address, so when the goof says they just stabbed their wife or shot somebody, the full SWAT team swarms the home expecting a showdown. Taking *any* sort of defensive action with a firearm if you were a swatting target could easily get you killed.

The goof doesn't have to be anywhere near the actual address. This isn't a onesey-twosey kind of thing either -- "... eight people were charged with orchestrating up to 300 'swatting' calls to victims they met on telephone party chat lines." Example news stories about swatting can be found at http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jivgUe-_xO5XLcGy8zxP9vN1O-cQD96345VG0 and http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090201/ap_on_hi_te/tec911_swatting.
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