[apollosmith]

Do you all think, as I do, that the church not allowing concealed carry in their meeting houses is a bigger issue in one area of the state as opposed to another?

Perhaps, but that does not make it any less illegal anywhere in the state. Unlike businesses that cannot do anything but ask you to leave if you disregard their no-guns policies, it is codified in law that LDS houses of worship are no-gun areas.

I'm not happy with it either, especially considering the churches history in supporting gun rights and even forming its own armies and militias several times in the past. Still, they seem to be pretty set on keeping things this way. On a positive note, in Utah, we're pretty much free to carry ANYWHERE we want except LDS churches and secure areas and that's more than almost any other state.

 

[apollosmith]

As a reminder, you can carry in an LDS House of Worship if you get written permission from the building supervisor.

Really? I wonder who the 'building supervisor' would be. Bishop? Not that I'd probably ask permission. I actually just found out that my former bishop carries all the time. And I know there's at least 2 others in my ward that would definitely carry there if we legally could.

I know part of the requirement for the LDS church was annual public notice. I haven't ever seen anything public except the BCI web site (and even then, it's several levels deep). Has annual public notice been made by the church as required by law? And if so, how can we find this notice?

 

[apollosmith]

Does someone know where or when the church has announced their gun ban? Was it in the Ensign? Church News? Read by each bishop at the pulpit?

The letter at http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590038317,00.html was read in Utah LDS congregations in January 2004. Of note, the letter says that they will give public notice. I'm just curious what that notice would be (if not the letter itself) and if that notice has been renewed each year as required by law.

The BCI web site states the procedures for being listed on the site itself, but this does not alone meet the requirements of the law, which state one of the following must occur:
1. notice given in person.
2. posting of signs
3. announcement in congregation
4. publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, etc.
5. publication in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state.

I'm pretty sure that 1-4 have not occurred with the exception of #3 in 2004. I'm not aware of #5 occurring and can't find anything in either the Deseret News, Salt Lake Trib, or Church News.

I certainly respect the legal process and the Church's legal rights to restrict weapons, but would like to ensure that the legal requirements they are asking us to comply with are equally met on their end.

 

[apollosmith]

It looks as if the LDS Church hasn't complied with the law.

Well, they haven't broken any laws or done anything wrong, though I don't think that's what you meant anyways.

It simply appears that they may not have met all of the legal requirements for banning firearms. They did meet these requirements in January 2004 by making public notice and by informing BCI of their intent. However, the law clearly states that public notice (NOT the informing of BCI) "shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first." If public notice has not been made in the last year in one of the methods listed above, then guns cannot be legally banned in LDS churches, right (unless there is a sign or you have been personally notified)?

If this is all true, the only thing this changes is that you are not automatically trespassing for taking a concealed weapon into an LDS church. The same rules as all other private establishments would apply to you (e.g., leaving if they ask you to, etc.).

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[apollosmith]

Also the law only requires that they re-up with BCI annually not the public notice.

No, that's not how I understand it. It states that they notify BCI that they have made or revoked the public notice so BCI can post the church name on the web site. The public notice itself expires after one year.

 

[apollosmith]

Thanks mcosman. That makes sense. It was never my intention to try and subvert the law or their policy, but just to make sure that myself and others understood it more clearly. To be honest, I sometimes feel that my church meetings are probably the most dangerous location I am in most weeks - no legal guns and a large audience make a great target, as evidenced at Trolley Square.

I guess it comes down to the fact that if you know the policy, you'd be in trouble. I very much doubt that anyone not aware of the gun policy could be charged with a crime here. In fact, the law is written in a way that almost allows ignorance here - "may not knowingly and intentionally."

Great discussion and thanks for the insight!

 

[apollosmith]

This is incorrect. The whole purpose of Utah Code Section 76-10-530 was to make this a state law, specifically an infraction in this case.

Yes, that's exactly how I understand it. This law makes it a direct infraction (with no defined punishment) to carry in churches (well, in this case LDS churches), whereas it is not an infraction to carry in other private locations.