[Car Knocker]

This is what BATF has to say about NFA firearms and paperwork (color emphasis mine):

(M25) Does the owner of a registered NFA firearm have to have any evidence to show it is registered lawfully to him or her? [Back]

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm in the owner's name. This document must be kept available for inspection by ATF officers. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the owner when the weapon is being transported.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25
Note that the feds do not require that a copy of the registration accompany the firearm when being transported. I don't see anything in Utah law that requires documentation of registration accompany a NFA firearm during transport. I fail to see any authority for a Utah state agency to demand documentation of registration of a NFA weapon before the owner can use it. It appears to me that the Lee Kay Center demand for documentation has no basis in law and is in direct contravention of existing state law - U.C.A. 76-10-500.

 

[SwordRapier]

I am not taking a stand on whether I believe the rules at the LKC are legal or not, I just want to know if this law has any application to rules at the Lee Kay center. The State has been fairly aggressive about enforcing their gun law even to the point of taking the U of U to Utah’s Supreme Court regarding their gun polices. If the rules at the LKC are illegal it is an awfully public flaunting of the law. So I reversed the way of thinking I wonder if the rules are legally justified. Here is what I came up with.

76-8-311.1. Secure areas -- Items prohibited -- Penalty.
(1) In addition to the definitions in Section 76-10-501, as used in this section:
(a) "Correctional facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 76-8-311.3.
(b) "Explosive" has the same meaning as defined for "explosive, chemical, or incendiary device" defined in Section 76-10-306.
(c) "Law enforcement facility" means a facility which is owned, leased, or operated by a law enforcement agency.
(d) "Mental health facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 62A-15-602.
(e) (i) "Secure area" means any area into which certain persons are restricted from transporting any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
(ii) A "secure area" may not include any area normally accessible to the public.
(2) (a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.

The LKC is run by the DNR. DNR is a law enforcement agency. Could they not legally state that their ranges are “secure areas” granting them the right to: ”prohibit or control by rule any forearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon or explosive.”

Now I am not sure how 76-8-311.1 e ii plays into this. One on hand the LKC is open to the public but, on the other you have to pay the entrance fee and agree to follow the rules so the LKC is not open to just anyone unlike a store or other public area. So perhaps it sill could be considered Secure.

Regardless, I still believe in following the rules otherwise we become elitist snobs and become our own worst enemy in our attempt to educate the public.

I support the rules a the Lee Kay Center. I will follow them. For the most part they are common sense and designed to keep us safe.

I do have my own story to tell about the Range Safety Officer at the LKC. I was at the range and having trouble with a revolver. The cylinder dismounted and I could not eject spent casings. The RSO’s called a cease fire figuring it was better to explain to the RSO what was going on I left the revolver on the table with three cases still in the cylinder.

I flagged down on RSO and explained the situation. He moved on with out incident. The other RSO came by a couple of minutes later and busted my chops for leaving a loaded firearm on the table. I explained to him the same thing I explained to the other RSO. After the ceasefire he was very helpful in assisting me in getting the stupid cases ejected.

The RSO’s have a difficult job for all they knew I could have been an idiot and left a loaded firearm on the table. I am sure that every one to them has had someone leave a loaded firearm on the table just before a bunch of people walk in front of the muzzles of firearms.

On a side note the manufacturer of the revolver replaced the cylinder at their expense shipping and all.

Also you know the drill. I am not a lawyer. I am just a wannabe novelist.

 

[LKCRO]

I continue to see and hear no rapid fire policy complaints at LKC. I explained on an earlier post about baffles being shot up to the point where we had to shut down an entire summer season. We're almost at that point again. Gaps are large enough that birds are nesting in the baffles ... meaning that the baffles are not full of gravel as they should be. The following information should not come from me as a volunteer RO but rather, Utah State's Risk Management division. They may monitor a web site like this but I doubt they would post anything without legal approval. Simpy put, the job of Risk Management is to determine how badly the state has their butt hanging out. A big reason LKC does not allow rapid fire is that slower firing rates provide better on-target accuracy, meaning a higher percentage of bullets stike the dirt berm, not the tops of railroad ties or concrete sidewalks which cause bullets to escape the range.

In case you haven't noticed, on the back side of the pistol range berm, we have trap houses for the shotgunners. A lot of pistol rounds have been picked up on the shotgun range even though no rapid fire is enforced (as well as we can) on the pistol and rifle ranges. If you're proud that you didn't get caught practicing your double-tap, please go to the shotgun range and ask to use the east-most three or four trap houses as often as possible! Just kidding ... I don't want anyone hurt, even you!

The LKC pistol range has a few bullet launch pads that can throw bullets up and out between baffles or between the last baffle and the berm. As long as all bullets impact the berm, the shotgunners are safe. If at all possible, trap houses behind the pistol range are not used in order to reduce "probability of occurrence" (POC in risk management terms) of an accident. The pistol range has been improved over the years to reduce that type of bullet escape. The reductions in POC of bullets escaping the range are the only reason this range is still able to operate in the middle of this populated valley. Range safety does not end at the firing line. It extends to any point, and for any reason, a bullet can escape the range. Remember the large fire at LKC a year or two ago? 50 BMG round escaped the 300 yard range (through a railroad tie) and started the fire. No more 50 BMGs allowed. Get the jist? Oh, and we don't have Mt. Olympus as a backstop!

Thanks for your understanding. Please pass the word.

 

[jaredbelch]

Sounds like LKC should be sold off to a private business if they can't follow the law. I wouldn't want to see that, but it's the same as the Zoo, if you don't want to be subjected to the strict regulations of our uniform firearm laws, then raise funds and become private!

 

[loudsixstring]

Going to Lee Kay today to zero the 308 on the 100yd range. If you're out there, I'm the guy with the long hair. I'll post here when I get back.

Check that.. Got called in to work.

 

[Daeyel]

$200 for each one. But it isn't so painful, because you can pay the $200 to the BATFE / Department of Treasury, and then slowly pay for your suppressor per your dealers requirements, some allow lay-away plans, others require you to pay up front. I got one for a .22 ($300), a .223 ($600), and I am getting a .338 ($1,300) I'll use that on my .340 Weatherby! The .223 suppressor is also used on my .17 HMR.

Holy COW. If you buy a suppressor for hearing protection you are WAY overpaying for hearing protection.

I can get the absolute best hearing protection on the market for $150. Here is how:

Go to your local hospital or hearing aid dealer. Inform them you want ear molds made. They will inject the goo in your ear, and make a perfect mold of your ear. Tell them you don't need them for hearing aids and they should just give them to you almost right away. (Mine always get sent off for finishing, since they have to drill a hole and install the tube to attach to my ear)
Not sure how long an ear mold not adapted for a hearing aid will take, but mine take abt a week and cost $50 - $75 each.
They are perfectly molded to your ear and beyond comfortable. (many people have them made with earphones installed to listen to music more comfortably)

So for $150 you can have the BEST hearing protection out there - all at less than the price of the federal stamp alone!

When I shoot, I just turn my hearing aids off, and the only thing I hear is from bone conduction.

 

[caverat]

Down the road when I build a house I want to put a range into my basement! :nilly:

I'm actually arguing that with my wife right now. We're building a new home and we plan to leave the basement unfinished. For now, at least. We're also going to install radiant heating so the ground floor/basement ceiling will have a 1.5" slab of concrete under the regular carpet, tile, etc., which should provide really good sound insulation.

My thought is that if I suspend a 1/4" steel plate at a 45 degree angle and build a sand box underneath it, I should have a nice backstop for a little pistol range in the basement. I might have to roll out some cheap carpet on the floor and maybe put some of that eggshell foam on the walls to absorb some of the noise, but it should still be both easy and cheap, especially since I already have the steel plate.

My wife just rejects the idea of an indoor range as an extravagance. I've decided to stop arguing for now, and then after we move in I'll just build it

I had a nice little 40 foot range just like that of course could only shoot when the boss was away :ROFL: but man was it cool....

 

[divegeek]

Down the road when I build a house I want to put a range into my basement! :nilly:

I'm actually arguing that with my wife right now. We're building a new home and we plan to leave the basement unfinished. For now, at least. We're also going to install radiant heating so the ground floor/basement ceiling will have a 1.5" slab of concrete under the regular carpet, tile, etc., which should provide really good sound insulation.

My thought is that if I suspend a 1/4" steel plate at a 45 degree angle and build a sand box underneath it, I should have a nice backstop for a little pistol range in the basement. I might have to roll out some cheap carpet on the floor and maybe put some of that eggshell foam on the walls to absorb some of the noise, but it should still be both easy and cheap, especially since I already have the steel plate.

I had a nice little 40 foot range just like that of course could only shoot when the boss was away :ROFL: but man was it cool....

Nice. In my case, we've had to put all of our house plans on hold due to the situation with my kids.

But, I'm still planning that range for when we get back on track

 

[rufus]

BAD NEWS

In the infinite wisdom of the on site management of the Lee Kay Center, they are closing on Sundays again with Oct 31 as the last Sunday open. It isn't a staffing problem, the volunteers are there to run it.

Public comments may help, certainly can't make the situation any worse.

[email protected] is the email address of the Hunter Ed Coordinator who oversees Lee Kay.

TIA.

 

[rufus]

When I posted TIA, I had no idea how much response would be generated.
The on-site management has been forced to reverse its position and Lee Kay will remain open on Sunday. One of the major factors in the reversal was the sheer number of e-mails sent downtown in protest, and I am sure a goodly number of them came from UCC.
THANK YOU!!!!!

 

[MouldyJoe]

Down the road when I build a house I want to put a range into my basement! :nilly:

I'm actually arguing that with my wife right now. We're building a new home and we plan to leave the basement unfinished. For now, at least. We're also going to install radiant heating so the ground floor/basement ceiling will have a 1.5" slab of concrete under the regular carpet, tile, etc., which should provide really good sound insulation.

My thought is that if I suspend a 1/4" steel plate at a 45 degree angle and build a sand box underneath it, I should have a nice backstop for a little pistol range in the basement. I might have to roll out some cheap carpet on the floor and maybe put some of that eggshell foam on the walls to absorb some of the noise, but it should still be both easy and cheap, especially since I already have the steel plate.[/quote]
I had a nice little 40 foot range just like that of course could only shoot when the boss was away :ROFL: but man was it cool....[/quote]
Nice. In my case, we've had to put all of our house plans on hold due to the situation with my kids.

But, I'm still planning that range for when we get back on track [/quote]

Please make sure you check what you will be shooting and be safe. I was an Iron worker in my past career and have made many targets/gongs for scouts/clubs etc. 1/4" steel plate even angled at 45 deg is only safe for 22 cal. soft cast lead or muzzleloaders. 3/8 would probably be fine for most pistol rounds, except the high pressure (+p) stuff, It would also wear out pretty soon. A high powered rifle will go through 3/8" Plate (personal experience) you need 1" plate for most rifles. I know this sounds like over kill, but look it up on e-how or miller welding forums. It's still a good idea, you just have to factor in enough safety, PLEASE don't forget ventilation as well, not just burnt powder, but lead dust as well. Just my .02.

 

[Car Knocker]

Moldy Joe,

It would probably be best for you to start a thread dealing with your proposed basement firing range rather than go off-topic in this Lee Kay thread. Thanks!

 

[MouldyJoe]

Thanks, great idea. There are probably several threads already. I have had minor issues with Lee Kay myself as well, but didn't want people to think all they needed to do to practice in their basements was to put up a piece of plate to deflect the bullets. Joe

 

[dewittdj]

Did you remember to say "Pretty please with sugar on top?" :lol3:

I think it depends on when you're on the range, how often you go, and how well you know the range staff. I used to go once a week on Thursday mornings - don't go as much now because of the weather and because I'm a stay at home dad with an eight year old - and really know the staff well and they will accommodate me if the range is empty.

I will say though, that there are a few there that come across as range nazis and are a bear to deal with. I just remember when they're on duty and make sure to avoid being there at the same time.

You beat me to it. That has been my experience exactly! There's a couple of ex-military out there and a father of a recent veteran, so I made a hit with my Marine plated vehicle, MGySgt stickers, EGA emblem, military ID card; and then, to top it off, spent the next 1/2 an hour BS'ing about the Navy, Marine Corps, and the Army. I was out there to set up teaching my first CFP class (renting one of their classrooms and stated that I wanted to use the range to verify the student's safe gun handling skills and their ability to successfully engage a paper plate at 25 yards). I've since taught three classes there and haven't had a problem. I have run into a few that tend to be a bit heavy handed, but I usually attribute it to their having had a bad day.

I often bring a lady or two along in fair weather for some pistol training and the range volunteers warm-up nicely, offering all kinds of advice and help. :lolbang:

As a result, I've gotten to know the staff pretty well and know which ones to joke with and which ones to address "yes sir." As it is the only range within 10 minutes of my place of work, if I want to continue shooting during my lunch hours, then I'll have to accommodate the various personalities there.
:dancing:

 

[rufus]

Hey, we're old, not dead.