[B Cart]

So after reading a few recent UCC threads, I've decided to add a non-lethal option to my every day carry rig. I have read a lot of self defense stories over the years, and I'm coming to the conclusion that there are situations that can probably be handled without having to use deadly force.

I have no problem pulling the trigger if my life or the life of my loved ones was in danger, but I would rather not ever have to kill anyone if I can avoid it. So, I bought some pepper spray that I will carry it in my weak hand pocket so I can deploy it with my left hand, while still being able to draw my firearm with my strong hand if needed. I feel like this gives me another option for self defense situations that maybe don't require deadly force.

How many of you carry some form of non lethal alternative with your carry rig? Do you think it's beneficial to have non lethal as well as lethal?

 

[Snowman]

Pepper spray. I don't put much confidence in it. It goes to church with me. I think there's a chance of ite maybe helping out, but most situations where you would use oc spray, you should have a firearm at hand as well. and ready to go, if the oc spray doesn't work fast enough.

I also carry a knife, as a possible alternative.

 

[slykly1]

I have been considering picking up a one of those Kimber Pepper Blasters.

My mother in law is a teacher at a elementary school and one night they had a program and a little girl in the front of the auditorium found her moms pepper spray and turned around and sprayed it like air freshener or perfume. The entire auditorium was coughing or crying from the spray.

Since that story I like the idea of a more concentrated spray that is less likely to affect me or non-target individuals in the area.

 

[Gyrase]

I don't carry anything non-lethal. My reasoning is that I am in good enough shape that if lethal force isn't justified then I can get out of the situation without any extra tools. i.e. run or fight my way out. I do carry a flashlight though which could be used to blind someone in the dark so that I can make my getaway.

My real reason for not carrying any non-lethals though is that they are generally more cumbersome than my XDm compact to conceal.

 

[Hawk87]

Something to consider, will you ever be in a situation where you have to use your firearm, but have questions come up about why you used that instead of the less lethal option?

Anyway, if I was going to carry one (I have enough crap in my pockets and on my belt as it is) I think I would go for an asp, or something similar. Although it wouldn't be as easy to stick in your pocket as say pepper spray, I think it would be much more effective on a windy day. :mrgreen: Also if someone was right on top of you or right in your face, you could use it to give yourself some room to draw your firearm.

Another thought is a Kubotan. Smaller and easy to conceal, it is still very effective IF YOU HAVE TRAINING with it. In fact some 'tactical' flashlights double quiet well as one, at least I know my streamlight would. It would be very effective up close, not only to get you space, but can be used for compliance as well.

 

[hyrax]

I voted "other". I feel that good VERBAL COMMANDS are very effective and, as stated above, doesn't clutter up my pockets.

 

[UtahJarhead]

I voted "other". I feel that good VERBAL COMMANDS are very effective and, as stated above, doesn't clutter up my pockets.

:agree:

 

[UtahCFP]

With re. to the baton, I think it's best termed "less lethal". You can do real damage with those things.

 

[Cinhil]

I don't carry anything non-lethal. My reasoning is that I am in good enough shape that if lethal force isn't justified then I can get out of the situation without any extra tools. i.e. run or fight my way out. I do carry a flashlight though which could be used to blind someone in the dark so that I can make my getaway.

My real reason for not carrying any non-lethals though is that they are generally more cumbersome than my XDm compact to conceal.

There are times when regardless of ones prowess, speed, agility or ability that you cannot get away, or have no opportunity to do so. If a Perp has you in their cross hairs (so to speak) or are so dogged on committing harm upon you or another there is no stopping them until you stop them. I have been in that boat and it was not nice, fortunately I was able to prevail with the threat of lethal force, which was my last alternative. You may want to re-think your philosophy and carry at least something. There are many smaller kubatons and other hand held items which can give a great edge when a situation has presented its ugly head. There is nothing wrong with being prepared, you just don't have to worry about carrying a policeman, or carrying a soldiers ready pack in order to be prepared.

 

[FrankenHollow]

gone

 

[RustyShackleford]

With re. to the baton, I think it's best termed "less lethal". You can do real damage with those things.

True, If i remember correctly, "Less-Lethal" is the term Tazer International is now using because the tazer has caused several deaths. After the death of the unarmed, naked man in Hurricane, UT, they have also advised to not aim for the heart area.

 

[Hawk87]

With re. to the baton, I think it's best termed "less lethal". You can do real damage with those things.

True, If i remember correctly, "Less-Lethal" is the term Tazer International is now using because the tazer has caused several deaths. After the death of the unarmed, naked man in Hurricane, UT, they have also advised to not aim for the heart area.

Pepper spray, batons, tazers, or whatever are all considered less lethal as they are all capable of killing under certain conditions. Anyway its kind of nitpicking though.

 

[Car Knocker]

I suspect that in a court of law, "non-lethal" and "less-lethal" would have significantly different meaning. If a company markets a device as "non-lethal" and fatalities occur, I'd think there would be greater liability exposure than if the device was marketed as "less-lethal". There have been enough fatalities incident to the use of a Taser that it's getting to be quite a stretch, in the public's perception, to call the device "non-lethal" even though there may not have been any deaths directly attributed to the use of the device.

In point of fact, there's very little in this world that isn't capable of being lethal if used with that intent or even purely accidentally on occasion.

 

[Gyrase]

Something to consider, will you ever be in a situation where you have to use your firearm, but have questions come up about why you used that instead of the less lethal option?

Sounds like a good reason not to carry a less lethal option. If you don't have one you couldn't use it.

There are times when regardless of ones prowess, speed, agility or ability that you cannot get away, or have no opportunity to do so. If a Perp has you in their cross hairs (so to speak) or are so dogged on committing harm upon you or another there is no stopping them until you stop them. I have been in that boat and it was not nice, fortunately I was able to prevail with the threat of lethal force, which was my last alternative. You may want to re-think your philosophy and carry at least something. There are many smaller kubatons and other hand held items which can give a great edge when a situation has presented its ugly head. There is nothing wrong with being prepared, you just don't have to worry about carrying a policeman, or carrying a soldiers ready pack in order to be prepared.

I realize it isn't a perfect system but ultimately I am only going to carry so much stuff every day and my belt and pockets are full enough already. At least the threat of lethal force is always an option for me. I've been in one or two tight spots before when I didn't even have a gun I got out of them. For a 220 lb + guy I can run deceptively fast. :shades:

 

[gobbly]

I would have to pick other, with the advice that you at least consider some sort of phisical combat training (ie: martial arts). I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from using whatever method of defense they felt comfortable with. Physical combat isn't something that you can get in a day and be done with it. You will have to invest at least a year or two to become semi-proficient (and realize how little you know ), but the benefits could be huge from a self defense point of view.

It also covers areas where most of these products are deficient (including your firearm), and that's close up. Pretty much every product out there is going to be much more dangerous to use when your attacker is in range to reach you and put up resistance before you can ready your defense. IMO it's skill in unarmed combat and physical shape that will give you the advantage in close quarters,fighting in general, and in using your weapon of choice.

I also assume you are looking for methods to deal with unarmed attackers. If not, I would point out that most people underestimate weapons like knives and batons, or the advantage of brass knuckles. Through training defensive combat I've trained in methods to deal with these sorts of weapons, and only after that experience did I understand the danger they pose (especially knives). If you run up against a dangerous weapon, do not take chances. If they could reach you in a second or two you could easily be killed with a single wound/blow. If the person on the other end really knows what they are doing and has intent, it's likely you would be killed in a single blow.

I personally think that a proper escalation of force with a firearm is adequate for any situation where I could draw and fire before they could reach me. I'd also be concerned that if I were to focus on something other than my firearm I would be at a disadvantage when it came time to use the firearm (would have a hand-full of tazer or spray can when I should have my hands readying my .45).

Training in physical combat also weighs nothing, and takes up no space. It's with you ALL the time, even if you happen to be naked It's also a GREAT and INCREDIBLY FUN way to exercise!

 

[divegeek]

I'd also be concerned that if I were to focus on something other than my firearm I would be at a disadvantage when it came time to use the firearm (would have a hand-full of tazer or spray can when I should have my hands readying my .45).

This is why I carry my pepper spray on my left side, and train myself to automatically put my strong hand on my gun when pulling the spray.

This is also a good reason to choose a less-lethal option which you can draw and deploy one-handed. Make sure you don't need two hands to disengage the safety, and make sure it doesn't require fine motor skills.

 

[B Cart]

I would have to pick other, with the advice that you at least consider some sort of phisical combat training (ie: martial arts). I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from using whatever method of defense they felt comfortable with. Physical combat isn't something that you can get in a day and be done with it. You will have to invest at least a year or two to become semi-proficient (and realize how little you know ), but the benefits could be huge from a self defense point of view.

It also covers areas where most of these products are deficient (including your firearm), and that's close up. Pretty much every product out there is going to be much more dangerous to use when your attacker is in range to reach you and put up resistance before you can ready your defense. IMO it's skill in unarmed combat and physical shape that will give you the advantage in close quarters,fighting in general, and in using your weapon of choice.

I also assume you are looking for methods to deal with unarmed attackers. If not, I would point out that most people underestimate weapons like knives and batons, or the advantage of brass knuckles. Through training defensive combat I've trained in methods to deal with these sorts of weapons, and only after that experience did I understand the danger they pose (especially knives). If you run up against a dangerous weapon, do not take chances. If they could reach you in a second or two you could easily be killed with a single wound/blow. If the person on the other end really knows what they are doing and has intent, it's likely you would be killed in a single blow.

I personally think that a proper escalation of force with a firearm is adequate for any situation where I could draw and fire before they could reach me. I'd also be concerned that if I were to focus on something other than my firearm I would be at a disadvantage when it came time to use the firearm (would have a hand-full of tazer or spray can when I should have my hands readying my .45).

Training in physical combat also weighs nothing, and takes up no space. It's with you ALL the time, even if you happen to be naked It's also a GREAT and INCREDIBLY FUN way to exercise!

I do like the idea of being proficient in unarmed combat techniques, and think it would be very valuable. Currently the only thing I've taken in that regard is some gun retention training. When I have more time, (right now I work full time and go to school full time at night), I would like to take a year or so of classes.

 

[UtahCFP]

I thought I'd share a bit of my own personal experience with re. to martial arts.

Waaay back when, I was pretty good at Tae Kwon Do. I have a black belt (though I don't lay claim to it these days) and when I was all tuned up I was reasonably proficient. In Tae Kwon Do (and at least some other martial arts), you refer to a weapon as an "extension", which is a nod to the idea that the weapon is merely an extension of your engagement is the situation. We were doing some red gun training one evening, learning some disarming techniques, and the gentleman teaching the principles referred to the gun as an extension. Well, that got me thinking.

A gun is exceptionally easy to operate and can project a lot of force. It doesn't take the same sort of effort to keep skills up as does something like Tae Kwon Do. Even when I was in my best physical condition, I wouldn't have felt confident against more than two or three unarmed (or lightly armed) attackers.

Well, after figuring out that a gun is an extension, I started noticing stories in the news about various violent criminal acts. The more I noticed these stories, the more evident it became that a gun gave a good guy a MUCH better chance of survival, and that a gun essentially trumped martial arts skills (though the same skills are quite useful in any given "find my way out of this bad place" engagement).

I went out and purchased my first firearm, and got my Utah CFP.

 

[gobbly]

A gun is exceptionally easy to operate and can project a lot of force. It doesn't take the same sort of effort to keep skills up as does something like Tae Kwon Do. Even when I was in my best physical condition, I wouldn't have felt confident against more than two or three unarmed (or lightly armed) attackers.

Well, after figuring out that a gun is an extension, I started noticing stories in the news about various violent criminal acts. The more I noticed these stories, the more evident it became that a gun gave a good guy a MUCH better chance of survival, and that a gun essentially trumped martial arts skills (though the same skills are quite useful in any given "find my way out of this bad place" engagement).

I went out and purchased my first firearm, and got my Utah CFP.

Great story! TKD is what I practice as well and it was the same realization you came to that drove me to my firearm. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable relying solely on physical combat in a dangerous situation, and since most of us are CC or OCers I imagine that is the same for most of us. By no means do I want to imply that physical training is a replacement for a firearm.

 

[JoeSparky]

There is a phrase used by a certain Firearms training company---- "Any gun will do, if YOU will do!" Emphasis added by me. Now, just because I have a gun or carry a gun does NOT mean that I have to use the gun. Do I want to use the gun? Heck NO, But I am willing to use the gun in a lawful manner in an effort to defend myself and my loved ones OR to DE-escalate a situation as allowed by Utah law.

My "less-lethal" tools are not limited to my situational awareness, wit, verbal skills, commanding presence, and certain other skills (including Sarcasm and Humor).
I have enough stuff to carry already without adding to having "the Batman Utility belt" look.

The preceding is my opinion ONLY, if any disagree and wish to carry or do in a different manner that is your right and privilege.