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http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3722062

A man is dead following a shooting near 1400 South and West Temple this afternoon.

The shooting happened around 12:30 p.m. Mitch McMillan, who witnessed the incident, says the victim was arguing with another man and appeared to lunge toward him. McMillan says the man then shot the victim.

Salt Lake City police Detective Jeff Bedard says the victim was dead when rescue crews arrived on the scene.

Bedard also says police have the alleged shooter in custody and they are interviewing witnesses at this time to find out exactly what happened.

Self defense or .......
 

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Meanwhile, Mark Cazares, who owns Mama's Southern Plantation restaurant, told KSL he knows the man who pulled the trigger. He says the man helps watch his business, and he believes the man acted in self defense.

Cazares also said the shooter owns a concealed carry permit and is a Vietnam vet. He believes the man would only use his gun if he perceived a life threat.
For everyone's sake, I hope it really was self-defense.
 

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swillden said:
For everyone's sake, I hope it really was self-defense.
X2

why is it... that if your a military vet the news has to mention so? What is it? Is it the kill kill kill mentality the public thinks the military has? So they have to add in that tidbit of info. It sure isnt, lets thank this man for serving our crountry and efforts to keep us free and have that liberalisum too :lol2:
I'll never tell a reporter I was in the military.

Oh good grief... does every shoting have to be gang or drug related?
 

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One other thought: When I read about situations like this, I've begun wondering if they couldn't have been avoided with OC. In this case, witnesses say the "victim" lunged toward the shooter. We don't know if he was armed, but if he was it must not have been with a gun. How many people, unarmed or armed with a knife, etc., would voluntarily attack a man they KNEW was carrying a gun?

This is why I think CC is a mixed bag. Sure, it arguably gives you the element of surprise should a fight begin, but how many fights would simply not happen if the potential assailant knew that a gun was in play?
 

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I just heard from KSL that the guy wasn't being charged at this time but the police will be meeting with the DA for options.

KSL also aired an interview with a teenager who basically said if you don't like the way a guy acts, all you have to do is shoot him. They also reported about the restaurant owner saying it was clearly self-defense.

ian
 

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The news at 6 started out saying "the shooting MAY have been in self defense"

It also said the person shot was a transient and reached into his bag as he was lunging at the man who shot him.

At least it was "one shot" to stop the threat, not the whole magazine; this may be very helpful....

and the restaurant owner said he was a Vietnam Vet, saying it was a good thing since he should know how to handle guns and the situation. This reference was meant in a good way..
 

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Someone posting on KSL has claimed to be the dead man's stepson, and claims he has a long rap sheet for violent offenses.

I'm betting they'll use this info in deciding whether to charge the CCW holder.

Hello everyone. My name is Nick. The man who died was my former Stepdad. His ACTUAL name is Michael James Mays with an S at the end. And I must say he got what he deserved and it sounds like him to be threatening people. But he knew when to draw the line. So I believe he was strung out on SOMETHING. To those saying I think he's mexican or whatever he's completely white. WHY I think he got what he deserved is when I was growing up he was always beating me and my brothers and my mom on occasion. When my older brother moved out at like 16 he started more with me. Then in October of 2005 him and I got into a really bad fist fight and he almost killed me. I moved in with my real dad then he started being an [no swearing please] to my little brother. That is when my mother drew the line and found a way to get out of the situation. Don't be judging my mom for not leaving sooner. She had 3 boys to raise and didn't know how to feed us without a man in the house. If you guys want details of any kind on him send me a message. I'll be glad to answer anything. A backup way to get a hold of me is my email. [email protected]

Thanks for reading.
Yeah me too. She got pregnant with my older brother when she was 16 and had him at 17. He has a different father and his father left then she met my dad. They divorced when I was like 6. Then she almost immediately engaged to my stepdad and I am a strong believer that we are ALL human and make mistakes. And I've been wanting a rematch with my stepdad since then but oh well. Its Karma. I could name countless times the cops were called cause he was being violent. Mostly with me because I was the rebel and my older brother moved out very soon. We used to live on 2100 south and Panama right behind the Jiffy Lube but the state kicked us out so they could build that apartment thing. But thats when most of the violent stuff between me and him happened.
 

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Wow, this is so close to home for us! I just hope that this "vet" did have due cause and from what has been said, it sound like he did. With this shooting only a mile or so from my home, it really makes me think that I hope I never have to use my gun. Every story you read or hear sounds like a nightmare for the person who shoots in self-defense.
 

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I am going to wait for more details to come out before passing judgement on this guy. But one thing I will say, is if you make a threatening move on a person acting like your pulling a weapon, be prepared for what happens. One does not know what is being pulled on them, what do they expect may happen a gun or knife. You will defend yourself. I would.
 

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So far it sounds to me like the permit-carrier probably acted as reasonably as he could given the situation and the tools at his disposal... future details will certainly shed more light on this initial assessment, however.

But I wonder... what prevented the permit-carrier from drawing down on the man and waiting to see what he was pulling out of his bag??? Knife or gun, he would've been prepared to shoot if needed.

Course, time in such events goes soooo fast, it's hard to know if that would have felt possible at the time.

Which is why every carrier should really also carry OC. OC would have solved this problem, no sweat. I know people are suggesting the man may have been on drugs and some people assert that OC (pepper spray) doesn't work on druggies but from my research I have found that that is not true -- it is a misconception carried over from mace (tear gas). Mace is mainly a pain-inducing agent -- which is why those on drugs may not be affected. But pepper spray causes involuntary closing of the eyes and watering of nasal and eye tissues as well as restriction of one's ability to breathe -- which is why it does work on those on drugs.

This should be a lesson for all of us -- not all assailants are perfectly identifiable street-thugs. Many will be threatening but less obviously requiring a bullet. We should have another tool at our disposal for these types (which, arguably, are most likely to approach us than thugs).
 

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It's an unnerving reality, we want to protect and insulate our family unit from violence, but ultimately might have to bring a violent action to bear to stop an assailant. The aftermath is what we are all concerned w/ here right?
Firstly, that we justly acted, and no bystanders were hurt, and that we survived. Second is life after something like this comes to one of our lives.. If it was a gang banger then what, we have to go to war now w/ the rest of em or move? Indecently, we moved from Atlanta after witnessing and having to drive thru a drive by, these guys were shooting this dude as he's running up a driveway across the street from shooters car (two shooters w/ semi autos, driver and rear seat shooter) just as we come rounding the corner driving towards them, on our way home from dinner out w/ friends, NOT FUN! The reality is, well, this stuff is real, its everywhere, and we never know how our paths will cross those meaning to do us harm. Carry, be ready, be safe....
PS, i was just thinking about the Atlanta incident, it's still clear as day after 3-1/2 years, would we would have had a responsibility/justification to blast the shooters?, had the Delta Elite at the house, the time it happened. I don't even know what I'd do in the same situation, we ducked and floored our turbo forester and we were outta there, called the police as we cleared the scene..my wife was driving and it freaked both of us out, it was nighttime so there was considerable muzzle "flash" more like flame...
what would any of you have done ?
 

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Agreed, bane. Pepper spray is often a better option. Not always, of course. If it were we wouldn't need guns. But often.

The one tricky thing about OC spray is ending up with a spray bottle in your hand then suddenly discovering that you really need a gun. I carry my pepper spray on the left and practice deploying it with my left hand, leaving my strong hand free to get my gun. In fact, in virtually any scenario I can think of where I'd be spraying someone, I'd want to have my gun drawn and ready, just in case the OC doesn't do the job.

If this security guard had pepper spray, we probably never would have heard about this incident.
 

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I'm waiting for more facts myself, but from the very beginning of hearing this story I wondered the same thing: Would he have had to shoot if he had drawn on the guy and yelled "Stop!" or some such thing. :dunno:

I can certainly understand how if someone was threatening you and you are already feeling attacked, when they reached into whatever they reached into you could feel your life was in jeopardy - and maybe it was.

I think legally he was probably justified... but I keep thinking about if it was me. If I had shot someone who was going for a kleenex or something, I'd feel like crap. I guess I wouldn't feel as bad as I would if I DIDN'T shoot somebody who ended up pulling a gun or knife or something and hurt me with ie, but I would still feel bad. :(
 
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Granted, we don't know all of the details, but I have to say I cringed when I saw this on the news last night. While I cannot judge fairly w/o all the facts but based on what was described in the article and the news broadcast I watched, it sure seems like he is in some gray area. I hear that the guy said he thought she saw the guy trying to go for a gun. I would have to say that unless I could actually see a gun being held, I would not draw my weapon in defense. Seems like a difficult response to justify unless you can see a gun in their hand. If the guy was really swinging or punching at people, is that life threatening, or imminent threat to someone's life? Was shooting the guy a response "equal" to the threat? In my concealed carry class they taught us that as far an being punched or physically assaulted, you would still need to show that you were in mortal danger or show that the person attacking you had the ability to cause grave harm or death by their actions. I have a hard time understanding how this was the case here. Again, I understand my judgment is based on possibly incomplete recounts of the confrontation, but sure seems the guy has left himself open for a civil suit and possibly criminal. I know this may sound selfish, but I am more concerned how a situation like this will harm the rest of those that conceal carry, and fuel those who are anti gun since one of the best arguments for concealed carry, is that those who do so, are generally not responsible for unjustified deaths and shootings, but too many in the "gray area" so to speak, can quickly change that perception. I am done w/ my 2 cents worth.
 

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sculptingmyguns said:
I would have to say that unless I could actually see a gun being held, I would not draw my weapon in defense.
When the aggressive, angry guy running at me started reaching into his backpack, I'd have drawn and pointed, but I think I'd have waited to see a weapon before firing. On the other hand, I generally OC, which I think might have dissuaded the guy from attacking me in the first place, and I carry pepper spray, which I probably would have used even before he started reaching into his bag.

I think this shooting is legally justified, but could and should have been avoided.
 

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swillden said:
sculptingmyguns said:
I would have to say that unless I could actually see a gun being held, I would not draw my weapon in defense.
When the aggressive, angry guy running at me started reaching into his backpack, I'd have drawn and pointed, but I think I'd have waited to see a weapon before firing. On the other hand, I generally OC, which I think might have dissuaded the guy from attacking me in the first place, and I carry pepper spray, which I probably would have used even before he started reaching into his bag.

I think this shooting is legally justified, but could and should have been avoided.
A big +1 all the way.
 
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swillden said:
sculptingmyguns said:
I would have to say that unless I could actually see a gun being held, I would not draw my weapon in defense.
When the aggressive, angry guy running at me started reaching into his backpack, I'd have drawn and pointed. I think this shooting is legally justified, but could and should have been avoided.
I don't disagree w/ this position. I guess I am a bit cautious perhaps because I really would not want to get sued, and would want a clear cut case of self defense, but sometimes real life is not so clear cut.

I don't agree that open carry is the solution because that assumes the attacker is in their right mind and not drugged up or something, making them able to see the gun and understand the significance of it. Drugged out people often do not think logically. Ask yourself, why would a drunk fool get into fights w/ people they could not possibly win a fight against, or against a group of people? I don't think open carry would have made any difference if this guy was strung out.

I also don't agree that the media portrayed ex-military who carry guns or shoot people as killers etc. I would have to say that when I read where someone is described as ex-military, is it not in a disrespectful tone, but they seem to try to use it to make the person seem like their actions are more legitimate or justified and the person more capable of using force and good judgment in a shooing situation. I really have not noticed a negative tone.
 

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sculptingmyguns said:
I also don't agree that the media portrayed ex-military who carry guns or shoot people as killers etc. I would have to say that when I read where someone is described as ex-military, is it not in a disrespectful tone, but they seem to try to use it to make the person seem like their actions are more legitimate or justified and the person more capable of using force and good judgment in a shooing situation. I really have not noticed a negative tone.
That is how I read it in this article as well -- it seemed to me they were suggesting that since he was a Vet perhaps we should pause and reflect on his trained ability to detect an assault better and respond to it properly more than the average Joe.

But I think some media do portray ex-mil in a negative light -- especially that would be the perception for those here who were around during the Vietnam era.
 
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