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A background check is required to determine if the applicant meets the legal requirements for a permit. Another issue would be the quality of a foreign background check - some countries, the bigger the bribe, the better the check.

Another thing to remember: The federal Gun-Free School Zone exception for CCW permit holders is predicated on the state running a background check. I'd think that if Utah issued some permits without the background check, it would place that exemption in doubt - much along the lines of the feds disallowing the use of a CCW to circumvent the Brady check by some states because a background check wasn't made when the permit was issued. If that were the case, I'd be less concerned about non-U.S. citizens/legal residents being able to procure a Utah permit than I would be about an infringement on the places a citizen/legal resident can legally carry.
 

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I have had mixed feelings about this practice for some time. I think that it is probably good to change.

Tarzan
 

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Why do these articles state that Vermont is giving out permits? I was under the impression that Vermont doesn't use CF permits as CC is legal there.

Also, according to the CCRKBA website, someone who holds a New Hampshire permit has reciprocity in Utah, so all these foreigners have to do is get a NH CFP and they can carry here. Unless NH changes it's policy as well, this law does little to prohibit concealed carry by foreigners.

I still don't see why we they didn't at least get a copy of their passport and fingerprints, enter them into the FBI database and run a check against major databases such as Interpol. All they have to provide is a hunting license? Come on, that's just idiotic.
 

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apollosmith said:
I'm not quite sure what to think of this. I guess it makes sense to not issue the permits until they can gain access to foreign criminal records, something that unfortunately is not likely to happen soon.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,51 ... 96,00.html

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1870766
Self-defense is an inalienable Right....

I know that NCIS/FBI can get criminal records from other countries. Just extend the weapon purchase to 1 week during which time it can be resolved/checked into.

I think backgrounds infringe on the 2nd Amendment anyways and so does ANY permits, wether it's drivers license, CCW or any other "permit" that is needed to excercise a Right.

Just my .44
 

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UTOC-45-44 said:
I think backgrounds infringe on the 2nd Amendment anyways and so does ANY permits, wether it's drivers license, CCW or any other "permit" that is needed to excercise a Right.
I agree that we shouldn't have to have a permit to exercise a right, but I wouldn't consider driving a right.
 

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What about criminals though? What about folks who have committed felonies? What about child abusers and wife beaters and drug dealers?

Should they have the right to own and use a concealed handgun? What about these type of criminals who enter the U.S. from other countries?
 

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tapehoser said:
What about criminals though? What about folks who have committed felonies? What about child abusers and wife beaters and drug dealers?

Should they have the right to own and use a concealed handgun? What about these type of criminals who enter the U.S. from other countries?
I believe that everyone has the God-given right to self-defense. We also have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, I also believe that these rights are contingent upon us respecting the rights of others (i.e. obeying the law). We can lose certain rights when we break the law. I believe it is appropriate to deny criminals of the right to bear arms, as well as the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, depending on the severity of the crime. Examples of this denying of rights would be the confiscation of firearms, the death penalty, incarceration, probation, etc. There is obviously a lot of gray area. In the case of child abusers and wife beaters, I think that not only should they be denied the right to bear arms, but the right to liberty (i.e. they should be thrown in jail for a good time). Maybe after they're done paying their debt to society and have proven that they will be "good citizens," they can have some of these rights back.
 

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I posted that article up on another gun forum I belong to, just as a matter of general information.

It seemed to have the unintended effect of stirring up quite a bit of "keep them durn furriners out" kind of sentiment. Such was not my intent when posting it.

As has been posted here, all people have a right to self defense, but I do scratch my pea brain over foreigners applying for USA concealed carry permits.

To what end?
 

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ebrinton said:
UTOC-45-44 said:
I think backgrounds infringe on the 2nd Amendment anyways and so does ANY permits, wether it's drivers license, CCW or any other "permit" that is needed to excercise a Right.
I agree that we shouldn't have to have a permit to exercise a right, but I wouldn't consider driving a right.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
(other language versions)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."
PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
 

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+1... bravo
 
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I think the real problem can be solved by simply removing the need for a CCW Permit in the first place. People have the right to defend themselves no matter where they're born. The ones with criminal records aren't likely to care whether the BCI gives them a little piece of laminated paper or not.
 

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tapehoser said:
What about criminals though? What about folks who have committed felonies? What about child abusers and wife beaters and drug dealers?

Should they have the right to own and use a concealed handgun? What about these type of criminals who enter the U.S. from other countries?
I am a Canadian citizen and currently hold a Utah CFP, a Pennsylvania LTCF, a New Hampshire PR/L and a Maine Non-Resident Permit to Carry Concealed Firearms.

I don't know about other countries but it is very possible for United States federal and state law enforcement agencies to do real time criminal record checks on Canadians via the FBI-NCIC//RCMP-CPIC link......in fact it is happening continuously on a daily basis every day of the week at roadside stops and by the Homeland Security CBP at the border crossings.

The belief that it is impossible to do accurate and complete background checks on Canadians is patently false.

Utah BCI is disseminating the myth of the difficulty of doing Canadian background checks because a couple of their senior managers have a "hate on" for Canucks and wish to exclude them from exercising their God given Second Amendment Right of self defense in Utah.

It's your country & state......I'm the guest.... and if you don't want Canucks here.......fine & dandy......just be forthright and say so.......at least that would be candid and upfront...........no need for certain individuals &/or agencies to make up stories.

The ANTIs just have to be loving this........Gun owners from one state fighting gun owners from other states..........US gun owners fighting Canadian gun owners. We are bickering & fighting each other when we should be presenting a UNITED FRONT to counter the ANTIs.........The Brady Bunch just have to be absolutely thrilled about all this silly & stupid INFIGHTING......united we stand.......divided we fall.

Don't think Utah BCI is your friend......no government bureacracies are truly friends of the Second Amendment. If they could revoke all our permits tommorrow they would.........driving wedges between Second Amendment groups on a national, geographic or ethnic basis is a way for them to defeat us by getting us to defeat each other.

Life Member - NRA, Life Member - GOA
 
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