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http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/237778/1/

Orem man shoots attacking pit bull

If John Erickson hadn't had his gun with him when a neighbor's pit bull attacked him, there's no telling how bad things might have been.

Erickson, 22, was walking up to his house on 400 South near 700 West in Orem on Wednesday when a neighbor's pit bull bit him from behind. As he rode his scooter to his house around 8:30 p.m., Erickson saw the dog sitting calmly while a neighborhood girl petted it. Then he parked and took three or four steps toward his house when the dog bit him.

"All of a sudden the dog grabbed my leg from behind," he said.

He swung his scooter helmet at the dog, which backed off for a moment. But when the dog charged forward, Erickson, who has a concealed weapons permit, drew his 9-millimeter pistol and fired at the dog's head. Erickson said he worries about what would have happened if he hadn't been armed.

"There's nothing I could've done. I couldn't run. There's no way I'm going to outrun it. There's nowhere I could go," said Erickson, a student at Utah Valley State College.

Even more, he said he worries about what would've happened if the dog had attacked his wife, Lynn Ann, who came home just two minutes before him, or the many children who walk down that street on their way to and from Orem Elementary School.

Erickson's mother, Lyn Erickson, who lives across the street, said she used to dislike her son's gun.

"Now I'm saying, 'I'm just so thankful he had a gun.' I'm just so thankful because what would you do?" she said.

At Erickson's request, no charges were filed against the dog's owner, said Orem police spokesman Lt. Doug Edwards. Vicious animal citations and letting dogs run free are misdemeanor offenses.

"You can't allow your dog to run at large. It doesn't matter how they get off the property, whether it's a hole (in the fence) or a broken leash. Dogs can't run loose," Edwards said.

The dog survived the shot to the top of its head. Erickson said the owner initially planned to euthanize the dog because its veterinary bills were expected to be as high as $4,000. But the owner had a change of heart and decided not to put the dog down, he said.

The owner of the dog, who Erickson said moved to the neighborhood several weeks ago, was not identified and could not be reached for comment. Orem police would not release the owner's name because no charges were filed.

Erickson said he is now concerned because the hole in his neighbor's fence has not been fixed -- a pile of branches now blocks the hole -- and the dog owner has another pit bull that he worries could get loose and hurt someone.

"Every day little kids from Orem Elementary walk right past the house. It could've been one of the little kids, it could've been my wife who got home two minutes before me," he said.

Lyn Erickson said she plans to talk to police about the hole in the neighbor's fence.
This is yet another reason to get a permit. It is something I consider everytime I go for a walk with my family.

Red Dragon
 

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I have allmost pulled my gun several times when walking my dog, in response to an attack by another dog.

In each case I have been able to stop the attack with a kick to the offending dog, but you must alwayd be vigilent. :shock:
 

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i have thought about the possibility of using my gun when attacked by a dog.

the last time i was attacked i was riding my bike past a junkyard, the junkyard dog came straight at me. i got off my bike and waited for him. luckily my perfectly timed kick hit him square in the side of the head. the dog immediately lost interest in me and struggled to make it back to the junkyard...i guess i was lucky.
I think that they also say if you are being attacked to shove your arm/hand down the throat as far as possible. i reckon once i got my hand down there i would reach around and try to mess up it's innards real good.
has anybody else heard this before?

it would not be fun to feel like i had to shoot a dog however. they are so mobile, fast, and small, could be a pretty hard target to hit and there is a lot of responsibility with pulling the trigger and sending the bullet.
 

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lockout said:
... I think that they also say ... shove your arm/hand down the throat ...
Thanks for the belly laugh! "They" say a lot of nutty things, don't they. :)

Though, I admit that I'm more wary of the owner's reaction than killing the dog. There are those that are more concerned about their dog than the bloody heap that used to be a child before the dog got to it.
 

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The gagging thing isn't that weird, actually.

If you are being bitten by a dog, you should never try to yank yourself away or pull away from the dog. This causes the dog to hold on even tighter. Only strike the dog as a last resort, when a dog is in attack mode pain can incite them more. What you should do is try to find a stick or something similar that you can put into the mouth of the dog. This makes the dog feel gagged and he will let go of you.
 

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GeneticsDave said:
Only strike the dog as a last resort ... What you should do is try to find a stick or something similar that you can put into the mouth of the dog.
This sounds like the advice like I should get to a phone and call 911 if I'm attacked? Or kick the knife (or gun) out of the hand of my assailant?

I'm not expert martial artist, but I'd need some more evidence that (1) this is practical and (2) it's real. Even if it's real, if it's not practical it's of not use.

Pain has always worked for me in the past. I've never had to use my gun but it's there in case clocking the dog in the head doesn't. Dogs are animals, and will see stars when solidly clobbered in the head just like you and I would. Plus, the head is easily accessible while the throat isn't. In my experience at least, clobbering the mutt is (1) practical and (2) real.

... though if the opportunity presented itself I wouldn't be too disinclined to shove the barrel of my gun down its throat... as a precursor to pulling the trigger.

*******

Sorry to be such a sceptic about shoving my XXL hand down the throat of a dog, past the teeth of the mouth that's vice-gripped onto me in order to get it to gag and let go of me. It just sounds too screwy.
 

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Though, if anybody can do this trick quickly and effectively, please come over and administer medicine to my cat. She's a wild one when it comes to shoving things down her throat.

:D :D :D :D
 

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blackpuma said:
Sorry to be such a sceptic about shoving my XXL hand down the throat of a dog, past the teeth of the mouth that's vice-gripped onto me in order to get it to gag and let go of me. It just sounds too screwy.
i think the shove the arm/hand down the throat thing is IF the dog already has bitten you and is hanging onto your appendage. like dave said don't pull it away keep pushing it in. this trick works really well when my 16 month old daughter bites me, why wouldn't it work on a dog? :D
 

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I was early attacked several years ago as a type of pit bull rushed at me & my room mate as we exited our apt. There was a young girl about 7 walking with her mother & the dog was not on a leash. I was carrying that day & immediately postured myself so that I was as big as I could possibly be, with my hand on my gun. The dog backed down, turned tail & ran to the mother.
We were fortunate that day, so was the young girl who didn't have to se me waste the dog in front of her.
Now on another note, I have thought about choking the dog if it came down to it, but I have heard that it may be much easier to pull the fore legs apart so they rip. Evidently this will cause a heart attack in the dog and the problem is solved. That said, I would honestly hope none of us would ever have to try any of these things. Unfortunately there are plenty of owners out there who are irresponsible--so please be safe & always vigilant.
 

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Jeff Johnson said:
Holy smokes! Lots of interesting tactics, to be sure.
I think that my .40 S&W would work best, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S&W

.40 S&W

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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.40 S&W

.40 S&W compared to other catridges (third from right).

Type
Pistol

Place of origin
United States

Production history

Designer
Smith & Wesson

Designed
January 17, 1990

Specifications

Parent case
10 mm Auto

Case type
Rimless, straight

Bullet diameter
.40 in (10.16 mm)

Neck diameter
.423 in (10.74 mm)

Base diameter
.424 in (10.77 mm)

Rim diameter
.424 in (10.77 mm)

Rim thickness
.055 in (1.4 mm)

Case length
.850 in (21.59 mm)

Overall length
1.135 in (28.83 mm)

Primer type
Small pistol

Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type
Velocity
Energy

135 gr JHP
1200 ft/s
(~366 m/s)
432 ft·lbf
(~588 J)

155 gr JHP
1140 ft/s
(~348 m/s)
447 ft·lbf
(~608 J)

165 gr JHP
980 ft/s
(~299 m/s)
352 ft·lbf
(~479 J)

180 gr JHP
1000 ft/s
(~305 m/s)
400 ft·lbf
(~544 J)

Test barrel length: 4 in
Source: Federal Cartridge Co. ballistics page
The .40 S&W is a rimless pistol cartridge developed jointly by Winchester and Smith & Wesson, two famous American firearms manufacturers. [1] It uses .400" (10.16 mm) diameter bullets ranging in weight from 135 to 200 grains (13 g) and operates at about 33,000 psi pressure.

Contents[hide]
1 History
2 Performance
3 Case failure reports
4 Synonyms
5 See also
6 References
7 External links

//

edit] History
The .40 S&W cartridge debuted January 17, 1990 along with the new Smith & Wesson Model 4006 pistol, although it was several months before the pistols were available for purchase. The .40 S&W evolved from the 10 mm Auto pistol ammunition which had been adopted by the FBI, but turned out to be too powerful for some of the agents, and exhibited poor accuracy in rapid fire. The 10 mm Auto gave performance akin to the .41 Magnum pistol round; the recoil and muzzle blast, especially from a short barrel, were found to be too much for many shooters. Essentially it was found that a pistol powerful enough for deer was not needed for the purpose of defense or law enforcement. The FBI started using reduced-charge version of 10 mm Auto ammunition, a subsonic load often referred to as the "FBI load" or "10 mm lite." Smith & Wesson redesigned the cartridge to make it shorter while maintaining the performance of the FBI load. They also decided to use a small pistol primer, rather than the large primer used for the 10 mm Auto. The .40 S&W cartridge quickly surpassed the 10 mm cartridge in popularity and units sold. With the .40 S&W being shorter than the 10 mm Auto and approximately the same length as the 9 mm Luger cartridge, many existing 9 mm Luger pistols could be adapted by their respective manufacturers to fire the new cartridge.

The case of the original 10 mm Auto had the same head dimensions as the old .30 Remington that was designed circa 1906 for the Remington Model 8 semi-auto deer rifle. The bullet was the same diameter as the old .38-40 dual use rifle/revolver round from the Old West. The .38-40, long obsolete, was known for good stopping power, and the .40 S&W reflects this, in a far more compact package.

Austrian manufacturer Glock beat Smith & Wesson to the dealer shelves in 1990, with pistols chambered in .40 S&W (the Glock 22 and 23) which were announced a week after the 4006.[2] Glock's rapid introduction was aided by its engineering of a pistol chambered in 10 mm Auto, the Glock 20, only a short time earlier. Since the .40 S&W uses the same bore diameter and case head as the 10 mm Auto, it was merely a matter of adapting the 10 mm design to the shorter 9x19 mm frames. While the Glock 20 was and still is considered an excellent pistol in 10 mm Auto, it has sold vastly fewer units than its .40 S&W cousins.

Initial acceptance of the .40 S&W was slow, since the round was considerably less powerful than the 10 mm Auto it was based on. This led to derogatory names such as ".40 Short and Wimpy" or ".40 Short and Weak."[3][4]

The 40 S & W is dimensionally identical to the 10 mm Auto except for length. Both cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case. Thus in a semi-auto they are not interchangeable. Smith and Wesson does make a double action revolver that can fire either at will using moon clips. A single-action revolver in the 38-40 chambering can also be modified to fire the .40 or the 10 mm if it has an extra cylinder. The .40 will at short range take deer with loads that come close enough to the combination of .40 caliber or better, 200 grains (13 g) bullet or better, and 1,000 feet per second (300 m/s) or better. It is also suitable for small and medium game.

IMI attempted a similar cartridge in the 1980s, called the .41 Action Express (or .41 AE) for the Jericho 941 pistol. This cartridge was based on the .41 Magnum case, cut down to fit in a 9 mm frame, and using a rebated rim the same diameter as the 9 mm Luger. The .41 AE is ballistically similar to the .40 S&W, to the point that many reloading manuals suggest using .40 S&W load data in the .41 AE. The .41 AE is a more attractive cartridge in many ways, as the rebated rim allows a simple barrel and magazine change to allow most 9 mm guns to be converted to .41 AE. The .41 AE uses .410 inch bullets, whereas the .40 S&W uses .400 inch bullets. However, as it lacks the backing of ammunition manufacturers in making .410 caliber bullets suited to semiautomatic pistols, the .41 AE has not achieved widespread popularity.

edit] Performance
The .40 S&W cartridge has become a huge success in the United States because, while possessing nearly identical accuracy[5], drift and drop, it adds 50% more energy over the 9 mm Parabellum with a more manageable recoil than the 10 mm Auto cartridge. In the rest of the world it has become a popular combat pistol shooting sports cartridge.[citation needed]

[/url]

.40 S&W Load Tables
The energy of the .40 S&W exceeds all standard-pressure and +P 9 mm Para loadings and many standard-pressure .45 ACP rounds, generating between 450 and 600 foot-pounds of energy, depending on bullet weight, with mid to high 500's typical. Both the .40 S&W and the 9 mm Parabellum operate at a 35,000 psi SAAMI maximum, compared to a 21,000 psi maximum for .45 ACP[6]. Some small ammunition manufacturers offer .40 S&W ammunition consistently developing energy well above 500 ft·lbf in all their .40 S&W ammo as off-the-shelf items.[7]. While SAAMI has not established a +P standard for the .40 S&W, there are companies marketing ammunition claimed to be +P, but they do not provide pressure data to support +P labeling.

The .40 S&W is considered by some[citation needed] the best cartridge for law enforcement use available today, combining superior stopping power when using expanding ammunition and manageable recoil in a package that remains compact, even when using a double-stack magazine. The .40 S&W has an overwhelming share of the U.S. law enforcement market as a result.[citation needed]

Despite the .40 S&W's great popularity amongst American law enforcement and the private sector[citation needed], it has yet to be adopted by a significant number of military forces worldwide. The mainstay for military use in the western world largely remains the preserve of the 9 mm Parabellum, or for a few special forces, .45 ACP in their respective adopted handguns. The United States Coast Guard, however, has adopted the Sig Sauer P229R DAK in .40 S&W as their standard sidearm.

There are two major reasons for western militaries' choice of ammunition. The first reason is quite simply that the .40 S&W is not a NATO cartridge, and standardization is very important for logistical purposes.

The second major reason for .40 S&W not being chosen by military forces is the expense of procurement, purchasing and stocking spare parts, training of weapons techs to service and repair firearms, etc. The handgun is primarily a secondary firearm in the military forces of any country, and the expense does not justify whatever improvement is available over 9 mm equipment currently in stock for a secondary firearm. Special units, of course, are often free to use whatever they feel best suits their purposes and have designated funding to deal with that.

Since American law enforcement agencies are not bound by these constraints, most have chosen the .40 S&W round for its excellent ammunition capacities, accuracy, and superior ballistic performance.

edit] Case failure reports

Beretta 96 Feed Ramp
The .40 S&W has been noted in a number of cartridge case failures, particularly in Glock pistols due to the relatively large area of unsupported case head in those barrels, given its high working pressure,[8]. The feed ramp on the Glock .40 S&W pistols are larger than normal, which leaves the rear bottom of the case unsupported, and it is in this unsupported area that the cases fail. Most, but not all, of the failures have occurred with reloaded or remanufactured ammunition. Cartridges loaded at or above the SAAMI pressure, or slightly oversized cases which fire slightly out of battery are often considered to be the cause of these failures. These failures are referred to by many as "kaBooms" or "kB!" for short. While these case failures do not often injure the person holding the pistol, the venting of high pressure gas tends to eject the magazine out of the magazine well in a spectacular fashion, and usually destroys the pistol. In some cases, the barrel will also fail, blowing the top of the chamber off.

Beretta 96 Extractor Notch
While the .40 S&W is far from the only cartridge to suffer from case failures, it is more susceptible for a number of reasons. The .40 S&W works at fairly high pressures (33,000 psi typical, but 35,000 SAAMI max) for a large caliber handgun cartridge, significantly more than, say, the .45 ACP.[9] Since the .40 S&W is a wide cartridge for its length, and is often adapted to frames designed for the equally long but narrower 9 x 19 mm cartridge, the length of the feed ramp must be longer to provide the same angle, which causes the feed ramp to extend into the chamber. This in turn leaves more of the case head unsupported. While this is not necessarily unsafe, it is reducing the margin of safety; when exacerbated by out of battery firing (leaving even more case head unexposed) and potentially weakened brass (due to reloading) these factors appear to lead to the higher incidents of chamber failur
 

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Jeff Johnson said:
Holy smokes! Lots of interesting tactics, to be sure.
I think that my .40 S&W would work best, though.
+1

I think my gun would be my first choice, then my knife, then a stick or rock, then my car keys, and finally maybe sticking my arm down its throat.
 

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This reminds me of something I saw on NatGeo the other day, where a crocodile attacked a diver but let him go because his arm was part way down the reptile's throat. Apparently crocodiles have a muscle at the top of their throat that closes off when they bite something to keep water out of their lungs, when the crocodile tried to take him under water, the reptile’s lungs started to fill with water and it let him go.

I've used the gag defense when my own dogs get too rough. But against an unknown animal (wild or domestic), a gun or knife would be my first choice.

 

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Wow... this story brings up MEMORIES!!!

Almost a year ago my wife and I were out one night walking the neighborhood... didn't have a gun or a permit back then... all of a sudden some fairly large neighborhood dog came after us on a vicious rampage. Instinctively I shoved my wife (and our small 10lb dog) behind me, took a stance ready to kick the dog in the face as hard as I could and bellowed at it as manly as I could muster. It stopped about 4-5 feet from me, looked at me, and growled. I decided to take a small step towards it and raise my fist... it backed down, thank heavens! I came very close to calling the cops but ultimately chewed the owners butt out... I really should have called the cops though b/c the owner acted like they really didn't care. Nevertheless, a week later I noticed the fence had been fixed. I suppose that's b/c I threatened to kill the dog with my bare hands if I ever saw it loose again. :twisted:

On another vein... back when I was about 14 I had a pit bull attack me. He was on a *VERY* long chain, but I got too close. He got a hold of my strong hand and I literally felt his jaw pop locked like the say pit bulls can do... and then he just started shaking my hand like a dead squirrel. I tried several times to kick him and punch him in the face to no avail. What DID work was taking my free hand, wrapping it around it's skull, and putting my fingers back into it's eye-sockets as hard as I could muster! He yelped in pain, letting go of my hand... so there I was, sitting with one pissed-off pit bull in my hand, wondering how I was going to let go of him without getting eaten... what I decided to do was give one last squeeze into it's eye sockets and then let go and run like heck... it might have been my imagination but I SWEAR I heard it's jaws smack shut inches from my butt as it outran the length of it's chain and yelped as the chain chocked him and held him back.

Ahhhh... what fond memories... funny, though, I'm still a dog lover!!!
 

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Yikes! I kill that dog. No hesitation. No remorse.

If its going to be the dog vs me, or dog vs a PART of me for that matter, I'll take the dog out in a heartbeat.
 

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I've successfully used pepper spray on many dogs in the past. These encounters were mostly while I attempted to serve legal process. Folks would get upset about being "served" so they would sic their dog on me. I was amazed at how effective the pepper gel was on the charging animal. :D Once the dog is on the ground the owner would become more aggressive and eventually call the police. Not only was I not charged with any wrong doing, but the owner would get cited for a violation(s) of the city's "Dangerous Animal" ordinance. :) I recently began carrying a 16" ASP Baton. I've used the baton once against an aggressive mixed breed dog that attacked while I was getting into my vehicle. The first blow was a solid strike to the dog's head. The dog seemed to become a little disoriented, then proceeded to attack again. Second and final strike was to the dog's rib cage. I heard a "crunch" that sounded like breaking celery. At this point the dog decided he had enough and ran to his owner. My neighbor called her son, who's a local police officer and happened to be at her house. She wanted him to arrest me for smacking her dog. The son advised her to "let it go" and keep the dog properly restrained on her property. Considering that she would have faced a few city ordinance and state law violations, I thought the son advised his mother well. :wink:

gf
 

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If it is me or the dog, good by dog. A few years ago was walking with my wife and dog (she is muzzled when I walk her). A doberman came at us, not at my dog but us. My walking stick is a solid fiberglass pole with lead on the end. Well I took a swing and hit it up side the head and he went down for the count. Needless to say the owner was very upset and called the cops at the same time I did. Well I was let go and the owner was giving a ticket for not having a leash on his dog. Yes I killed it but did not mean to. The cop said I was in the right and he would have done the same.
 

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rdoggsilva said:
If it is me or the dog, good by dog. A few years ago was walking with my wife and dog (she is muzzled when I walk her). A doberman came at us, not at my dog but us. My walking stick is a solid fiberglass pole with lead on the end. Well I took a swing and hit it up side the head and he went down for the count. Needless to say the owner was very upset and called the cops at the same time I did. Well I was let go and the owner was giving a ticket for not having a leash on his dog. Yes I killed it but did not mean to. The cop said I was in the right and he would have done the same.
That's what I love to hear. I'm impartial to dogs (HATE cats), but if there is an attack, I would not feel any remorse killing/maiming the dog to protect myself or someone else. I have never understood the type that think the life of an animal trumps human life. I've actually heard a few people say that they feel we should defend the lives of animals before humans, because humans can speak for themselves, but animals cannot communicate their desire/need to survive to us. I am shocked every time I hear this sentiment.
 
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