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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was out hiking with my two sons (ages 3 and 5) yesterday in the Book Cliffs, about three miles from the nearest pavement at the end of a rough dirt road--it was really out in the middle of nowhere. We had hiked along a trail that went up a steep hillside, and after about half a mile, we turned around and started heading downhill toward the truck. It was then that I saw a person standing next to the truck, but there were no other vehicles in sight. Apparently some transient had been camped nearby, and after we'd left the truck, he started snooping around. I'm not exactly sure what he was doing, probably looking for a spare key hidden under the truck, but I saw him climb into the truck bed. At that point I yelled down to him to leave the truck alone, and he stopped what he was doing to look up the mountainside toward me, then ducked down behind the cab of the truck again where I couldn't see him. I yelled again, and he got out of the truck bed, but kept snooping around.

I knew then that there was something wrong with the guy--he knew I was there and I was coming down the mountain toward him, but he wasn't leaving. I decided to fire a warning shot, in the opposite direction from him, just to let him know I was very serious about protecting myself, my sons, and my property. After I fired the shot and yelled at him one more time to leave, I saw his arm come down in a sweeping motion toward one of the rear tires, and I heard the air suddenly escaping. He then slashed the other rear tire and left the area.

As I was hurrying down the trail toward the truck, he disappeared from my view in the bottom of a wash, and when he came back up the other side of the wash a few minutes later, he was wearing a large backpack which he hadn't been wearing before, so I'm assuming he was camped down there. As I was heading west and he was heading south, he slowly started looping around to the east and then northeast and was coming straight toward my sons and me. I really thought at that point that he was coming after us, and at a minimum I knew that he had a knife, and I thought that I might really have to use the handgun to defend my life. We were at the bottom of the mountain by then, and we headed northwest to try to put some distance between us and him. We ended up circling around each other about 1/4 mile apart, and finally it got to the point where he was hiking up the trail that we'd just come down off of, and he kept on going up. I finally felt safe enough to stop and dial 911, and I explained to the dispatcher everything that had happened.

About nine law enforcement vehicles arrived, and they even called out an airplane to search for the guy, but once he climbed to the top of the mountain (about 1,000 higher in elevation from where the truck was), he was off the narrow trail and could disappear in almost any direction. The police never did catch up to him--he had a one hour head start--but one Emery County sheriff's deputy got pretty close before he crested the top and disappeared into the juniper and pinyon pine.

I'm not necessarily certain that being armed saved my life, but I definitely question the mental stability of the guy. Before I'd even fired the warning shot to scare him off, he had cut holes in the two 5-gallon fuel cans that were in the bed of my truck, all presumably because I'd yelled at him to leave. He was bold enough to stick around even after I'd fired the warning shot, and the sheriff's deputy said that the guy was yelling down at him and taunting him as he tried catching up.

Apparently the guy wasn't afraid of me after he knew that I was armed (especially because he started walking straight toward me at one point), so if I hadn't been armed I think that yelling down to him would have been a big mistake. I shudder to think what might have happened if I hadn't been able to defend myself and my sons.
 

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Geez, that is a scary story and I am glad that you and your kids are fine. It is good to hear that law enforcement made a strong effort to find this pyscho, but it is too bad that he is still at large.

I spend a fair amount of time out in the "wild" Geocaching where you see few people and have always felt pretty safe. Thanks for sharing your experience and I am going to stay on higher alert when away from civilization from now on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
heavykevy said:
I spend a fair amount of time out in the "wild" Geocaching where you see few people and have always felt pretty safe.
Same here--in fact, I was actually out looking for somewhere to place a new geocache when all this happened. I go out nearly every weekend to remote places, mostly in and around the San Rafael Swell, and I've always felt pretty safe out there. I think I still feel pretty safe, this was obviously a very isolated incident, but it sounds like it might be difficult convincing my kids that it's okay to go back out into the wilderness.

I would also like to add that having a cell phone and a GPS out in the wilderness is a lifesaver as well. Both of them sure came in handy in this situation.
 

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Wow. :shock: & people wonder why I strap on the evil black Russian shotgun or the .243 with 8-25X scope when hiking any real distance from the vehicle.

Also I've seen posts about wacko's like this at another site. IIRC they were discussing roughly the same area. Seems to me they are having a little problem down there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Mr. Magnum said:
Also I've seen posts about wacko's like this at another site. IIRC they were discussing roughly the same area. Seems to me they are having a little problem down there.
What other site? I'd like to read up on it and see if there are any other areas that I need to avoid.
 

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Udink said:
What other site? I'd like to read up on it and see if there are any other areas that I need to avoid.
I went looking for the info at the time I posted, but the forum over there was being flaky. Now I relocated some of it & my memory didn't serve me that well :roll: . (Now I feel a little retarded.) They were referring to the Goshute canyon/ Deep Creek area. Seems they were talking about a story about missing deer hunters & someone else chimed-in about hearing other stories about crazed hermits or animals in the area.

Here are a couple links to the info for what it's worth.
Pics & story
Forum topic
 

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I'm SO glad that nothing came of it.

One can NEVER predict when situations like this happen. What are the odds of running into a feak job like that? Near zero is still non-zero.

That's why except in very specific situations (such as when I'm practicing with my swordfighting group), I'm always armed as a matter of habit.
 

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Plus, I'm not sure why you say it's not "Not really self-defense, but....". It sure sounded like it to me.

From the description, he was definately a threat, and destroyed personal property even when facing a gun.
 

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That's just creepy. I think mentally unstable folks CAN be the most threatening. At least a mentally sound person would cease at the threat of being shot....
I enjoy going on off road outings with my wife and some friends now and again, and I have always taken my XD with me. (Of course I take it everywhere, which is why I get mocked by my wife so much (until she gets scared and makes sure I have it with me) ...but that's another story)

Anyway, glad that everything worked out alright for you and your sons. Did I get it right that he slashed TWO of your tires??? Jerk. Did you have to pay for a tow out of there, or did you get new tires??
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
blackpuma said:
Plus, I'm not sure why you say it's not "Not really self-defense, but....". It sure sounded like it to me.
All I really meant was that my life was never in immediate danger, though it could have turned that way quickly. I think that letting him know I was armed prevented it from turning that way.

smo said:
Did I get it right that he slashed TWO of your tires??? Jerk. Did you have to pay for a tow out of there, or did you get new tires??
Yep, he got two of 'em. He slashed one rear tire and started walking away, but after two steps he apparently thought better of it and walked around the truck to slash the other rear tire. I still had one good spare, and my father-in-law had another spare of the same size so he drove it out to me.
 

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Udink said:
I was out hiking with my two sons (ages 3 and 5) yesterday in the Book Cliffs, about three miles from the nearest pavement at the end of a rough dirt road--it was really out in the middle of nowhere. We had hiked along a trail that went up a steep hillside, and after about half a mile, we turned around and started heading downhill toward the truck. It was then that I saw a person standing next to the truck, but there were no other vehicles in sight. Apparently some transient had been camped nearby, and after we'd left the truck, he started snooping around. I'm not exactly sure what he was doing, probably looking for a spare key hidden under the truck, but I saw him climb into the truck bed. At that point I yelled down to him to leave the truck alone, and he stopped what he was doing to look up the mountainside toward me, then ducked down behind the cab of the truck again where I couldn't see him. I yelled again, and he got out of the truck bed, but kept snooping around.

I knew then that there was something wrong with the guy--he knew I was there and I was coming down the mountain toward him, but he wasn't leaving. I decided to fire a warning shot, in the opposite direction from him, just to let him know I was very serious about protecting myself, my sons, and my property. After I fired the shot and yelled at him one more time to leave, I saw his arm come down in a sweeping motion toward one of the rear tires, and I heard the air suddenly escaping. He then slashed the other rear tire and left the area.

As I was hurrying down the trail toward the truck, he disappeared from my view in the bottom of a wash, and when he came back up the other side of the wash a few minutes later, he was wearing a large backpack which he hadn't been wearing before, so I'm assuming he was camped down there. As I was heading west and he was heading south, he slowly started looping around to the east and then northeast and was coming straight toward my sons and me. I really thought at that point that he was coming after us, and at a minimum I knew that he had a knife, and I thought that I might really have to use the handgun to defend my life. We were at the bottom of the mountain by then, and we headed northwest to try to put some distance between us and him. We ended up circling around each other about 1/4 mile apart, and finally it got to the point where he was hiking up the trail that we'd just come down off of, and he kept on going up. I finally felt safe enough to stop and dial 911, and I explained to the dispatcher everything that had happened.

About nine law enforcement vehicles arrived, and they even called out an airplane to search for the guy, but once he climbed to the top of the mountain (about 1,000 higher in elevation from where the truck was), he was off the narrow trail and could disappear in almost any direction. The police never did catch up to him--he had a one hour head start--but one Emery County sheriff's deputy got pretty close before he crested the top and disappeared into the juniper and pinyon pine.

I'm not necessarily certain that being armed saved my life, but I definitely question the mental stability of the guy. Before I'd even fired the warning shot to scare him off, he had cut holes in the two 5-gallon fuel cans that were in the bed of my truck, all presumably because I'd yelled at him to leave. He was bold enough to stick around even after I'd fired the warning shot, and the sheriff's deputy said that the guy was yelling down at him and taunting him as he tried catching up.

Apparently the guy wasn't afraid of me after he knew that I was armed (especially because he started walking straight toward me at one point), so if I hadn't been armed I think that yelling down to him would have been a big mistake. I shudder to think what might have happened if I hadn't been able to defend myself and my sons.
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This did NOT sound right to me.
He wasn't even close to you, right???
He didn't Threaten you with "serious bodily harm or death" right???

You NEVER shoot a "warning" shot...IF you shot you shot to stop the IMMEDIATE THREAT.

I think you were in the wrong 100%

But then again I wasn't there.

In general if the Perp is within 21-30 feet and somehow portrays a threat with anything OTHER than his/her fists. Not good.

Seeing somebody going thru a Truck...Observe and IF possible call 911. Give description and wait for the Popo

Just my .45

http://www.gunthorp.com/Carry%20Application%20Utah.htm

76-2-401. Justification as defense -- When allowed.
(1) Conduct which is justified is a defense to prosecution for any offense based on the conduct. The defense of justification may be claimed:
(a) when the actor's conduct is in defense of persons or property under the circumstances described in Sections 76-2-402 through 76-2-406 of this part;
(b) when the actor's conduct is reasonable and in fulfillment of his duties as a governmental officer or employee;
(c) when the actor's conduct is reasonable discipline of minors by parents, guardians, teachers, or other persons in loco parentis, as limited by Subsection (2);
(d) when the actor's conduct is reasonable discipline of persons in custody under the laws of the state; or
(e) when the actor's conduct is justified for any other reason under the laws of this state.
(2) The defense of justification under Subsection (1)(c) is not available if the offense charged involves causing serious bodily injury, as defined in Section 76-1-601, serious physical injury, as defined in Section 76-5-109, or the death of the minor.

76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined.
(1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other's imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(2) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in Subsection (1) if he or she:
(a) initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;
(b) is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or
(c) (i) was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement, unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person his intent to do so and, notwithstanding, the other person continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force; and
(ii) for purposes of Subsection (i) the following do not, by themselves, constitute "combat by agreement":
(A) voluntarily entering into or remaining in an ongoing relationship; or
(B) entering or remaining in a place where one has a legal right to be.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat from the force or threatened force described in Subsection (1) in a place where that person has lawfully entered or remained, except as provided in Subsection (2)(c).
(4) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6. Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony. Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
(5) In determining imminence or reasonableness under Subsection (1), the trier of fact may consider, but is not limited to, any of the following factors:
(a) the nature of the danger;
(b) the immediacy of the danger;
(c) the probability that the unlawful force would result in death or serious bodily injury;
(d) the other's prior violent acts or violent propensities; and
(e) any patterns of abuse or violence in the parties' relationship.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
UTOC-45-44 said:
He wasn't even close to you, right???
That's correct. He was 0.4 miles away.

UTOC-45-44 said:
He didn't Threaten you with "serious bodily harm or death" right???
Correct again.

UTOC-45-44 said:
You NEVER shoot a "warning" shot...IF you shot you shot to stop the IMMEDIATE THREAT.
Maybe you mean "YOU" never shoot a warning shot. I do, and did in this situation, and I was perfectly within my rights to do so. I was quite far away from the bad guy, I fired in a safe direction, I had a good backstop, and as required by Utah law, I was more than 600 feet away from the nearest structure or road.

UTOC-45-44 said:
I think you were in the wrong 100%
Do you mean legally? Tactically, morally? I believe I have a moral duty to stop somebody from messing with my stuff, especially when I'm an hour away from any police response. I didn't break a single law, and I believe my actions caused the bad guy to leave the area while avoiding a face-to-face confrontation. Works for me!

UTOC-45-44 said:
Seeing somebody going thru a Truck...Observe and IF possible call 911. Give description and wait for the Popo
Maybe in town that's acceptable, but where I was, I absolutely was not going to simply sit there for hours with two young children waiting for the guy to leave.
 

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Udink said:
UTOC-45-44 said:
He wasn't even close to you, right???
That's correct. He was 0.4 miles away.

UTOC-45-44 said:
He didn't Threaten you with "serious bodily harm or death" right???
Correct again.

UTOC-45-44 said:
You NEVER shoot a "warning" shot...IF you shot you shot to stop the IMMEDIATE THREAT.
Maybe you mean "YOU" never shoot a warning shot. I do, and did in this situation, and I was perfectly within my rights to do so. I was quite far away from the bad guy, I fired in a safe direction, I had a good backstop, and as required by Utah law, I was more than 600 feet away from the nearest structure or road.

UTOC-45-44 said:
I think you were in the wrong 100%
Do you mean legally? Tactically, morally? I believe I have a moral duty to stop somebody from messing with my stuff, especially when I'm an hour away from any police response. I didn't break a single law, and I believe my actions caused the bad guy to leave the area while avoiding a face-to-face confrontation. Works for me!

UTOC-45-44 said:
Seeing somebody going thru a Truck...Observe and IF possible call 911. Give description and wait for the Popo
Maybe in town that's acceptable, but where I was, I absolutely was not going to simply sit there for hours with two young children waiting for the guy to leave.
76-2-402. Force in defense of person -- Forcible felony defined

...Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.

I think you were wrong tactically and legally but then again I'm not a lawyer. But please contact Clark Aposhian @ 801-560-4836 concerning the "warning" shot and about the whole situation. You might have "made" it past the cops this time next time may not be so successful.

I was ALWAYS thaught IF you pick up the shooter you do it to STOP the IMMEDIATE threat and no warning shots since you did not feel IMMEDIATE physical threat to yourself and/or your son / 3rd party.

I just don't want you to get into trouble. But then again I was not there.

I didn't mean anything harsh other than PLEASE BE CAREFUL.

Sincerly

Your Brother in Arms

...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
UTOC-45-44 said:
I think you were wrong tactically and legally
Ok, fair enough, but HOW was I wrong either way? I had no legal duty to retreat, the firing of my handgun was done in a legal manner, and I got the results I wanted--he left, and I didn't have a potentially violent confrontation with him in front of my kids. I hope you don't think cowering behind a boulder would have been a better choice, but I wasn't about to let this guy have his way with my property.

As for quoting laws, this one is more applicable to the situation:

76-2-406. Force in defense of property.
A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force, against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent or terminate criminal interference with real property or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession; or
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.

Would you call firing a handgun into a hillside, more than 2,000 feet away from the bad guy, "deadly force?" I may have threatened deadly force, but I did not use deadly force.

By the way, if you want to read my whole write-up of the situation, including pictures of the area, follow the link below. It might give you a better idea of what went down and why I did what I did.

http://www.udink.org/archives/2006/11/be_prepared.shtml
 

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Udink said:
UTOC-45-44 said:
I think you were wrong tactically and legally
Ok, fair enough, but HOW was I wrong either way? I had no legal duty to retreat, the firing of my handgun was done in a legal manner, and I got the results I wanted--he left, and I didn't have a potentially violent confrontation with him in front of my kids. I hope you don't think cowering behind a boulder would have been a better choice, but I wasn't about to let this guy have his way with my property.

As for quoting laws, this one is more applicable to the situation:

76-2-406. Force in defense of property.
A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force, against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent or terminate criminal interference with real property or personal property:
(1) Lawfully in his possession; or
(2) Lawfully in the possession of a member of his immediate family; or
(3) Belonging to a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.

Would you call firing a handgun into a hillside, more than 2,000 feet away from the bad guy, "deadly force?" I may have threatened deadly force, but I did not use deadly force.

By the way, if you want to read my whole write-up of the situation, including pictures of the area, follow the link below. It might give you a better idea of what went down and why I did what I did.

http://www.udink.org/archives/2006/11/be_prepared.shtml
As I stated "I'm not a Lawyer".

Unless he would have put me in a situation to threaten me I would NOT have fired.

You state per above code "A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force,'"

I belive, MY opinon, that You used Excessive Force and/or Deadly Force in this situation that was NOT within the Perimeter of using the Firearm.

You did what You felt what was needed for the situation, and I cannot change what you felt that you had to do.

I don't condone what was done since I was not there.

You and I have an awesome resposiblity when we carry firearms and I just don't want us to loose that responsibility.

Just carefully making suggestions. You obviously read the Law and I hope you know it and that both of us study it Every day to keep ourselves out of trouble.

I didn't mean anything harsh other than PLEASE BE CAREFUL.

Sincerly

Your Brother in Arms
 

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I have to agree with UTOC-45-44.

Firing a warning shot from your handgun is not within your legal right. You can only pull and show your gun if you feel you are in immediate and imminent danger (for yourself or others).
Defense of property specifically states "A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force..." and a handgun is always considered deadly force.
I also am bringing this up because I don't mean anything harsh other than PLEASE BE CAREFUL.
I don't have all the answers, but the only thing I could suggest different is to high tail it back to your vehicle, and if he starts to come at you, THEN you have every legal right to pull your gun and if he doesn't stop, then you can shoot him (after giving him some verbal warnings).

I just want to help, so all of us who are willing to defend and protect ourselves, don't have any problems with the law and the media. If the guy that did that to your vehicle wasn't so crazy, he could have sued you and pressed charges against you for brandishing a weapon, and attempted assault or attempted murder. It may feel like a stretch to you, but things like that have happened to other good people just trying to do the right thing.

I don't mean anything harsh other than PLEASE BE CAREFUL.

Red Dragon

PS - I am a CWP instructor, and that is what I teach all my students.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Red_Dragon said:
Firing a warning shot from your handgun is not within your legal right. You can only pull and show your gun if you feel you are in immediate and imminent danger (for yourself or others).
Defense of property specifically states "A person is justified in using force, other than deadly force..." and a handgun is always considered deadly force.
I must admit that I'm baffled by yours and UTOC-45-44's responses. I do appreciate feedback on the situation, but I'm not sure you even understand the circumstances. By your logic, anybody at a firing range who fires a handgun at a paper target is using unlawful deadly force if there is another human being within hearing distance. Do you understand that I was nearly half a mile away from the bad guy, that he couldn't have even seen my handgun at that distance, and that I fired in the OPPOSITE direction from him? He heard a loud bang, that's it. He did not see my handgun, and I did not point it at him. How is this considered deadly force under Utah law?

Red_Dragon said:
I don't have all the answers, but the only thing I could suggest different is to high tail it back to your vehicle, and if he starts to come at you, THEN you have every legal right to pull your gun and if he doesn't stop, then you can shoot him (after giving him some verbal warnings).
Again, did you even read what I wrote? Are you saying that you would rush with your 3- and 5-year-old kids into a potentially violent confrontation? Or, leave them alone on a rocky cliff while you rushed alone into a potentially violent confrontation? I would not, and had no desire to, so I did what I could from a distance, and IT WORKED! The bad guy left, nobody got hurt, and I was able to safely return home with my kids.
 

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I'm baffled by you linking a use of force incident with going to the shooting range. That makes no sense to me. So I don't know how to reply to that.

You need to look at what a reasonable and rational person would think in a court of law. Your purpose of firing a round (even in the opposite direction) was a "show a force" directly linked to the man looking through your vehicle. You did it, to try to stop him from doing what he was doing, which is a show of force (and a gun is considered deadly force). In that situation it would at least be brandishing a weapon, even from a distance, because your intent was to get him to stop what he was doing. If you were just having target practice, and shooting at rocks or logs, then your intent and the purpose of firing the gun, are completely different and are not linked, which would not be possibly illegal (because I'm not a lawyer, and I never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, etc.).

As to my suggestion, I don't remember you stating the age of your kids, which would have changed my suggestion (I have little kids, and I would never put then in danger). I just looked back and saw that you mentioned the age and so I apologize for my suggestion. It would have been the wrong thing to do in your situation. As I stated, I don't have all the answers, and I don't really see another way to handle it (besides calling the police ASAP, to get them there sooner, as mentioned before).

I guess I'm trying to reiterate that the CWP gives you the legal right to carry a deadly weapon in places that most people can't, and use that weapon ONLY WHEN YOU OR A THIRD PARTY ARE IN IMMEDIATE JEAPORDY OF DEATH OR SERIOUS BODILY INJURY. I didn't see a time when you or anyone else was in danger of immediate death or serious bodily injury. If you had no desire to confront him, then you should have just called the police and waited for then to arrive and done nothing else.

It appears you are getting too upset over my comments. I'm not trying to criticize what you did. I am trying to give you constructive feedback, to hopefully help you out in the future. As I said before, I don't want the good guys to get in trouble for trivial things that an overeager DA/Deputy looks at and decides to prosecute on.

It all ended well, and that is the most important thing. You and your kids are safe, and that is the best thing that could of ever happened. In the end, my comments and others are all armchair quaterbacking, because I have never been in a situation like that, and I don't know how I would of handled it, until I was in that situation myself. You did what you thought was best, and that is also important in a court of law.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Red_Dragon said:
Your purpose of firing a round (even in the opposite direction) was a "show a force" directly linked to the man looking through your vehicle. You did it, to try to stop him from doing what he was doing, which is a show of force (and a gun is considered deadly force). In that situation it would at least be brandishing a weapon, even from a distance, because your intent was to get him to stop what he was doing. If you were just having target practice, and shooting at rocks or logs, then your intent and the purpose of firing the gun, are completely different and are not linked, which would not be possibly illegal (because I'm not a lawyer, and I never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, etc.).
Thanks for at least trying to explain why you feel that way (as others have not been able to do). I see where you are coming from, however, I cannot find anywhere in Utah law that defines "deadly force." That is why I compared normal activities at a shooting range to the use of my handgun to warn off a lunatic. In both situations, the gun is pointed in a safe direction and there is no (or very little) chance of anybody getting harmed.

Also, I don't see what intent has to do with it, since it was not my intent to harm anybody. If I intended to kill somebody by flicking a booger at them, I doubt they'd haul me into court. The same would apply to my situation--I had no intent to harm anybody, and my actions could not possibly have harmed anybody. Please explain to me how you think my actions equal the use of deadly force. I admit it was a show of force, but it was not the use of deadly force.
 
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